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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

541 replies

daimbars · 10/05/2018 18:15

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 13/05/2018 13:06

Daimbar you wrote "if a trans woman was attacked or raped I hope as a society we would allow her to access support in a domestic violence or rape crisis hostel rather than dismissing her as a dangerous male.
If a predatory TRA decided to self ID as female to deliberately access a woman's safe space then that is a different scenario.
Using discretion and assessing on a case by case basis, as per the current law, is my suggestion."

Please read the part of this thread from Fri 11-May-18 19:30 with respect to trans women prisoners Sophie Eastwood and Alex Stewart.

Sources from recent articles (links to which are in the thread) have commented:
"Despite their new female identities neither have had surgery, and fellow inmates complained that they felt intimidated around the pair because of their behaviour."

"The women inmates have had to accept that Stewart is being allowed to live as a woman, despite not having had surgery.
That means she is in the showers at the same time as other inmates, which some have found quite awkard.
She has the right to determine her own gender."

Hopefully you will be able, as SuperMatchGame did, to acknowledge the very real issues that already exist (prior to the possible changes in GRA to include self id) when some male-born people are able to access what were previously single sex spaces?

The rebuttal against concerns for women prisoners with regards transgender prisoners, is often that "individuals are assessed on a case by case basis."

SMG replied "Yes I acknowledge there are very real issues when some male-born people are able to access what are single sex (female) spaces.
Yes, sounds sensible [that individuals are assessed on a case by case basis] given that not all transgender prisoners have committed sex crimes or are a risk."

& yet significant issues have been demonstrated recently in respect to these prisoners, Sophie Eastwood ("previously dubbed “Hannibal Lecter Jnr” over the chilling intimidation of a female guard") and Alex Stewart, who have been convicted of murder and continue to be held in the female prison estate. This is despite using what SMG believed were sensible assessments by the prison service.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs

I would reasonably anticipate that the prison service would have more information available to them (by way of pre-sentence reports, ongoing risk assessments, time and resources etc) than a women's refuge.

Additionally,
A woman using refuge services on the Victoria Derbyshire show (5/3/2018) shared what is, an incredibly important perspective.

Link discussing this here, although having checked, BBCiplayer no longer have the segment of the show available so I will try to find it:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3184532-Pilgrim-Tucker-who-spoke-at-the-meeting-last-Tuesday-being-stitched-up-on-TV-tomorrow

I think the needs of vulnerable women in prisons and those who need to use women's refuges deserve greater consideration.

I don't know Daimbar if your comment is made in good faith. Perhaps it is and when you raise it, you are thinking of the trans women you know and are motivated by empathy for them.

It is though very simplistic and at the very least, I would hope you are willing to engage with the reality of service provision for those who have experienced domestic violence.

The impression that I have, is that those who make such statements have very little understanding or awareness of this reality.

R0wantrees · 13/05/2018 13:10

Furthermore, I would suggest that those who comment, "using discretion and assessing on a case by case basis, as per the current law, is my suggestion." have little awareness of how law affects risk assessments.

SupermatchGame · 13/05/2018 18:37

R0wantrees
who have been convicted of murder and continue to be held in the female prison estate. This is despite using what SMG believed were sensible assessments by the prison service.

I didn't say those specific cases were sensible assessments. Every single process involving humans is subject to some human error and no process is 100%. But the case by case basis is relevant because (and prepare yourself for a shock here) not all trans women are violent/ sex offenders.

R0wantrees · 13/05/2018 18:47

SupermatchGame
You are missing the point and your comment about 'shock' is churlish.

Teacuphiccup · 13/05/2018 18:51

Not all men are violent/sex offenders either, should we let them into the female estate because they’re feeling uncomfortable in the male estate by a case by case basis?

UpstartCrow · 13/05/2018 18:53

@SupermatchGame And not all violent or sex offenders have been caught and successfully prosecuted.

R0wantrees · 13/05/2018 19:05

Do you have much experience of the criminal justice system Supermatchgame?

Much of my work has intersected with it, along with safeguarding and DV services whilst supporting a wide range of people (of both sexes) who are vulnerable.
I haven't worked in prisons (though have been in a few).
Anne Ruzylo is a former prison officer though and speaks of her concerns in this clip:

Tinkletinklelittlebat · 13/05/2018 19:37

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

I may be wrong but I thought the GRA was actually at the time to ensure that trans people were able to marry without legal issues (100% behind that one) and the Equality Act came afterwards which made the GRA obsolete? The Equality Act definitely needs re writing as it's been made into a well intentioned but muddled mess.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Shock

Seriously?? don't be silly No. Of course not.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Until fairly recently, I'd have said yes without hesitation and I still want to say yes.however since this is increasingly being used as the thin end of the wedge to remove women's right to sex segregation, doubts are creeping in.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Well obviously not since there are plenty of trans MNetters. I don't think the BNP are representative of the UK as a whole either. That doesn't stop me having serious concerns about their views, motives and actions. Or that these are the people being invited to give their views to government in the formation of policy while silencing and abusing other parts of the trans community who have different views or experiences. It would be a bit strange not to be concerned about this?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman?

Yes. I know you specify that only direct personal experiences count, but I don't share personal information on demand thanks. I feel my safety and wellbeing as a woman is threatened both personally and generally as removing all meaning from the word 'woman' and removing sex segregation from women, as well as their right to make personal choices about privacy and dignity, is a threat to the safety and wellbeing of all women.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women?

No.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

Be patient as they may also repeatedly tell me they are a cat or a pokemon, raise them in a home where they know from birth that boys and girls can wear any clothes they like, play with whoever they like, play with whatever toys they like, and avoid gender stereotypes/teach them to question gender stereotypes. The distress at the thought of puberty would obviously need different support based on age/any other needs, it's specific to the child. I'd try to identify the underlying reasons why puberty felt so upsetting to them and address those, help them understand and have as much experience as possible that many children of both sexes struggle with puberty and bodily changes, give them the emotional and practical support they needed at the time, and support them in being as gender non conforming as they felt drawn to be.

SupermatchGame · 13/05/2018 19:50

Calling Feminists alt right (white supremacist neo Nazis) with all that entails was to me the ultimate insult.

Some Feminists. Alt right is used colloquially as a catch all for extreme right wing:

"The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely-connected and somewhat ill-defined grouping of white supremacists, neo-Confederates, neo-Nazis, neo-fascists, and other far-right fringe hate groups. Alt-right beliefs have been described as isolationist, protectionist, antisemitic and white supremacist, frequently overlapping with neo-Nazism, identitarianism, nativism and Islamophobia, antifeminism, misogyny and homophobia,.."

It was in response to the many times feminists have posted materials by extreme right wingers who write about trans people such as Brendan O'Neil (see thread) where even other feminists have pointed out how misogynist he is. Also happens in the Transgender Medicine thread where a representative of the American College of Pediatricians is presented and supported because of his views on trans people. His small right wing campaign group also states in their position statement on same sex parenting:

There is significant risk of harm inherent in exposing a child to the homosexual lifestyle. Given the current body of evidence, the American College of Pediatricians believes it is inappropriate, potentially hazardous to children, and dangerously irresponsible to change the age-old prohibition on same-sex parenting, whether by adoption, foster care, or reproductive manipulation. This position is rooted in the best available science.

These are the people who are often held up by rad fems on this forum as being wrong about everything except what they say about transgender.

R0wantrees · 13/05/2018 20:00

Do you have much experience of the criminal justice system Supermatchgame?

I'll take that as a no then.

thebewilderness · 13/05/2018 20:06

SupermatchGame

We do not condemn people for agreeing with some of the things you say. Perhaps we should.
Your accusations against the women here are deplorable. Your attempt to justify your accusations against the women here are disingenuous at best.
I have reported this post doubling down and justifying your deleted post.

SupermatchGame · 13/05/2018 20:40

thebewilderness
Your accusations against the women here are deplorable. Your attempt to justify your accusations against the women here are disingenuous at best.
I have reported this post doubling down and justifying your deleted post.

I see the post you are referring to. I assumed it was deleted because I quoted one of Brendan O'Neil's articles which mentioned a well known sex offender.

In reference to the right wing perhaps I should have said that forum members were posting some material and views of those on the alt right. Therefore they were supporting some of the views of the alt right. The accusation of actually being the alt right was I agree a step too far and rightly deleted.

And if we're talking about deleted posts, I have found only two of mine deleted. Many more of yours have been.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 13/05/2018 20:42

And if we're talking about deleted posts, I have found only two of mine deleted. Many more of yours have been

Its not a competition

SupermatchGame · 13/05/2018 20:43

R0wantrees
Do you have much experience of the criminal justice system Supermatchgame?

I'll take that as a no then.

It's a no. As I said before not all transitioned trans women are sex offenders and hence their inclusion in women prisons should be assessed on a case by case basis. That is what I said earlier and that is what I am saying now. That is also the legal position unless I have misunderstood?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 13/05/2018 20:43

Or is it

Im doing dreadfully if it is

Or maybe im doing well...hard to tell

SupermatchGame · 13/05/2018 20:52

two of mine deleted.

*Three. It was a different post.

thebewilderness · 13/05/2018 20:54

But the case by case basis is relevant because (and prepare yourself for a shock here) not all trans women are violent/ sex offenders.

Only 40% of transgender identified males currently incarcerated are violent/sex offenders is rather a bizarre NAMALT to offer up.

R0wantrees · 13/05/2018 20:54

It's a no (SuperMatchGame does not have experience of the CJS). As I said before not all transitioned trans women are sex offenders and hence their inclusion in women prisons should be assessed on a case by case basis. That is what I said earlier and that is what I am saying now. That is also the legal position unless I have misunderstood?

SuperMatchGame I recommend Anne Ruzylo's video ... she speaks of the pressures (legal, political and otherwise) put on 'case by case assessments' made by the prison service.

SupermatchGame · 13/05/2018 20:54

Its not a competition

I know. But I don't like it when I see a post deleted as it makes me question if I've said something wrong. Which on occasion most of us have.

AngryAttackKittens · 13/05/2018 20:58

Surely the bar for whether or not a male person is transferred to a women's prison could be a bit higher than "is not a violent sex offender".

(I'd say it should be set at "we don't transfer males to women's prisons, instead we make specific provision for them in men's prisons as needed".)

SupermatchGame · 13/05/2018 20:59

Only 40% of transgender identified males currently incarcerated are violent/sex offenders is rather a bizarre NAMALT to offer up.

And what exactly is a 'transgender identified male'? That could be anyone under the wide umbrella that, remember, I'm not in favour of. I'm talking about transitioned trans women, with no record or risk of offending.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2018 21:06

And if we're talking about deleted posts, I have found only two of mine deleted.

I've seen more than that in the short time I've seen your username on Mumsnet. Perhaps you're just not that observant?

And yes I'm well aware my posts get deleted too, but I'm not boasting about it.

AngryAttackKittens · 13/05/2018 21:06

That's great and all, but we're not responsible for the umbrella being expanded to ludicrous proportions, so maybe take that up with the organizations that are.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2018 21:09

And what exactly is a 'transgender identified male'?

lol, it's not hard. You're making up your own arbitrary definitions of "trans woman" yet citing Stonewall as an authority. Ask them what "transgender" means. I'm sure you can ask a friend what male means. Or use a dictionary.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2018 21:11

Surely the bar for whether or not a male person is transferred to a women's prison could be a bit higher than "is not a violent sex offender".

You'd think, wouldn't you!

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