Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

[daimbars]

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

Well we all need food, shelter, healthcare. All of the stuff that I need specifically because I'm female trans women don't need, on account of not being female. In some cases they may need separate provision for themselves.

*if, not in

And you already know my answer to that, Rat. Wanting single sex spaces is not a coping mechanism, at its most basis it's a desire for privacy that most humans have (most men too when it comes down to it). Women also have safety concerns, but even if those were resolved the privacy issue would remain.

Describing women's desire for single sex spaces as a coping mechanism is many thing, but feminist it most definitely as not, however much it makes you feel good to pat yourself on the back about being stronger than other women.

(You're not, you're just more selfish.)

Women also have safety concerns, but even if those were resolved the privacy issue would remain.

Exactly. But Rat despises women who want privacy and dignity. It's weak.

I'm half expecting the next derail to be about how we wouldn't be so weak and scared if we'd all just take up kung fu, and then we'd be fine with sharing changing rooms with men.

Describing women's desire for single sex spaces as a coping mechanism is many thing, but feminist it most definitely as not

Please recall that I DIDN'T lobby your comment the other way, I simply asked you to consider that in the wider debate it could be.

And let's be very, very clear here Angry that the only person to describe anything as a coping mechanism was you. And what you described as a coping mechanism was my desire for women to see themselves as strong.

I leave you to decide whether that's feminist or not, because I frankly don't have an opinion.

Entire population = all humans.

I need some rights and services because I am human.

I need some rights and services specifically because I am female. I don’t see where the overlap is between the rights I need because I am female and the rights somebody needs because they are trans.

I can only see an overlap where we need the same rights because we are human - but that group includes everyone.

But Rat despises women who want privacy and dignity. It's weak.

For heaven's sake Ereshkigal, I can't even... Perhaps if I wasn't so hungover it might be worth it.

You realize that you're making a bit of a fool of yourself at the moment, right, Rat? It's obvious that you've lost the argument, failed to make a single convincing point, and alienated a whole lot of women in the process. Trying to DARVO it isn't going to work, it just makes you look desperate.

Again Angry, I'll leave that open to a broader range of interpretations if it's all the same to you.

And anyone throwing DARVO around would do well to consider who's views hold the majority of the power on this site. I understand that appreciating the balance of power is important in abuser situations.

Thanks @merrymouse I understand what you mean now

And anyone throwing DARVO around would do well to consider who's views hold the majority of the power on this site.

MNHQ? The Twitter reporting crew?

Nobody here is in any position of power over you, Rat. Trying to spin things to make yourself look like a poor bullied victim just isn't going to work.

Also, who argues with people on the internet with a hangover? Go eat something, take some headache pills, take a nap like a normal human.

I can't get up, this is all I can manage to do :/

PS totally not trying to spin myself as a victim (as you can imagine, that's not my preferred style). I've never thrown DARVO around; however I think the power dynamic should be a consideration for those who do.

Right, off to try out being upright...

Lots of ground covered, it's been lovely as ever.

The power dynamic is MNHQ - can delete comments, ban people. Commenters - fuck all power really.

Having unpopular opinions on a forum where nobody is actually making you comment is not like being an abuse victim.

Having unpopular opinions on a forum where nobody is actually making you comment is not like being an abuse victim.

Nope, it really isn't.

Do you think someone disagreeing with your opinion on a forum is like being an abuse victim?

Let's remember again that it wasn't me who called DARVO.

Of course not, but pretending that you're being unfairly attacked by everyone when you're just being disagreed with? Yep, DARVO of a rather clumsy and unconvincing sort. As is trying to frame women who want privacy when going to the toilet, changing etc as oppressing the male humans who'd very much like to do so with them.

Dismissing women's concerns about privacy and safety, otoh, falls more under "being an arsehole", which to be fair has been the majority of your input on this thread.

but pretending that you're being unfairly attacked by everyone when you're just being disagreed with

I don't think at any time I said I was being attacked, unfairly or otherwise. You said DARVO. That rather implies that you considered yourself the Victim and me the Offender, does it not?

Dismissing women's concerns about privacy and safety, otoh, falls more under "being an arsehole", which to be fair has been the majority of your input on this thread.

What a roundabout way of telling me you think I'm a cunt Not new information to me, but thanks all the same.

What a roundabout way of telling me you think I'm a cunt

No, a direct way of saying she thinks you're an arsehole

Nah, not me. Other women in this thread whose fears you've handwaved away though? Yeah.

Also note that I never used that word (and wouldn't - I know a lot of other Brits throw it around with merry abandon but it's too gendered an insult for my liking).

Other women in this thread whose fears you've handwaved away though?

Again, I think you're misremembering my input in this thread. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else? Although I suppose there's a chance it could be me who's mistaken; do you have any examples?

Oh, have we hit the sealioning portion of today's events? Sorry, no fish for you.

I don't think at any time I said I was being attacked, unfairly or otherwise.

You implied it by mentioning the "balance of power" because most people on this thread and you said MN as a whole don't share your view. At least that is honest, you're not trying to pretend the gender critical view is the fringe one and everyone's on board the genderism train, unlike all your delightful TRA friends.