Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

[daimbars]

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

It's such a silly talking point. Why does it always get wheeled out?

Is this because the medical profession believes in immortal souls wrongly assigned (“born in the wrong body”) or because they think this is a last-resort way of helping people with severe dysphoria to live in the mist comfortable way possible?

It's a puzzle!

It’s actually gender ideology that clings to the idea of binary gender stereotypes. For how can you be non-binary, gender queer, transgender and all the rest of it without boring old binary to compare yourself with?

This actually contradicts the EA as it is now. I don’t think you can argue that Stonewall want to keep ANY single-sex spaces at all.

I'm pretty sure they have written a position statement before saying that they want them gone, like all other trans orgs now trying to shush women with the sop that we still can have the rarely used exemptions.

Terfragettecity this is the interesting bit - I don't know how I know, I just do.

So it isn't the vagina, the periods, the breasts, the period pains, the blood, the lower pay, the objectification - you just 'do'?

Come on now - stop being silly.

I always find the phrase 'denying trans existence' quite inflammatory ! I dont think anyone is against the human rights and humane treatment of the small percentage of people who have gender dysphoria, however you have to question what is the underlying motivation / cause / reason for identifying as trans if you dont have it , particularly those that wish to emphatically state they are the opposite sex !! and seek to change the language ie pregnant woman, pregnant person. Why should women give up their right to aws, a place in a refuge to someone who is quite happy keeping his penis and testosterone who gets off on being called she ?

If trans people didn't exist how could they send us death threats on Twitter?

I always find the phrase 'denying trans existence' quite inflammatory !

Me too. It's emotional blackmail hyperbole and makes me roll my eyes every time. I will speak to people who make mature arguments considering my perspective.

lol good point Angry.

1. No
2. I would like to see all toilet and changing spaces redesigned to make them fully accessible to disabled people, unisex and fully safe from men and for men as well as women. I don't need to share space with other women. But we will only achieve this if men's space is threatened rather than women's. Since they are the ones who have generally designed our inadequate loos.

Regarding prisons, the presence or absence of a penis should be the deciding factor.

I have a dd who has always presented as male. The biggest threat to her is people who believe male and female brains are different. That belief creates dysphoria about her body. I can see it at work every time she is exposed to the idea. When I reassure her that people's expectations of her are bs, she is who she is, her clothing and hair choices are great and all brains are pretty much the same, the dysphoria fades. I have moved to become gender non conforming for her sake. She is doing great, may well be gay - we'll see. Gender critical feminism is, in my opinion, a much better option than sterlisation and self loathing.

If i woke up with a male body I think if be pretty chuffed actually.
I could go and get taken seriously when 8 interacted with people.
Walk where I liked when I liked.
Be able to run faster
Could have some fun with a penis too.
I quite fancy it.

However that doesn't mean I would put myself through a load of damaging medical treatment to become a facsimile of a man.

I did a quiz a while back that said I was a gender non binary

It's such bullshit though. I'm a female with a human personality.

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

Yes

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?
No

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

No

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

No, they are a small very vocal minority who do more harm than good to their cause.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?
I only feel threaten by that small, vocal minority who scream down at women and who talk about "killing terfs". But i only feel threatened as a direct consequence of their actions and words.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

No

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My children, both male and female do play with all toys, wear what they wish and the colours they wish. I would help them by letting them express who they are. I wouldn't be pushing puberty blockers or trans doctrine on them until the are an adult and then they can make that decision with my support.

Can I ask you a question @daimbars? When I asked you on another thread whether you believed men and women have different brains which, for example makes most women more inclined towards parenting and most men more inclined towards STEM and you said yes - that small boys and girls have very 'different energies' - do you not see how that belief contributes towards sexism and to dysphoria in gender non conforming children? And do you have any proper evidence for it? Or is it based in folklore?

With people like the OP I always wonder which way round the chicken and the egg are, ie. are they arguing for innate gender identities in everyone because they believe in gender identities for trans people and if not everyone has one that undercuts trans theory or are they arguing in favor of trans stuff because they believe vehemently in the pink brain/blue brain stuff and trans theory helps to reinforce it?

I know not everyone on here agrees with this but I go back to my claim that most people have never accepted the scientific view of the brain and are thoroughly steeped in the idea that men and women have different natures. They got it from their parents who got it from their parents etc. I even think some scientists (including psychologists) who don't specialise in gender hold the same views unquestioningly. Against this backdrop the trans narrative makes perfect sense and you would struggle to understand why anyone would object.

I totally agree with you. It's a long established belief that has persisted for thousands of years. I fall into it myself sometimes until I take a step back and look at my thought processes. It's little wonder people don't question it.

SupermatchGame wrote - "TWrW is the truth in the way that a transitioned woman has altered enough physical aspects of sex to sometimes need the same protections that natal females need, for similar reasons. Weaker strength, vaginal rape vulnerability. Dignity. Privacy."

Rape vulnerability but not vaginal rape vulnerability. They do not actually have a vagina, they have modified male anatomy.

Rape vulnerability but not vaginal rape vulnerability. They do not actually have a vagina, they have modified male anatomy.

Also only a tiny proportion of trans identified males have had this surgery and most don't want it. A fact which SMG repeatedly ignores because that's not how they define "transitioning". Unlike all the organisations they are constantly appealing to the authority of.

So yes AAK I think it is the latter. I'm not sure we spend enough time on this forum explaining the social nature of gender. People like daimbars probably have no idea that their outdated sexist views are actively contributing to dysphoria

AIBU to be offended by a neo-vagina? To be reduced to a hole for a penis. That's not what a vagina is that's disgustingly sexist isn't it? Why aren't women more upset about this? I am fuming but I can't talk about it without sounding like a bigot or genital obsessed - but - FFS they're my genitals why don't I get an opinion?

I really do think that if we could at least somewhat temper that stuff almost everyone would be happier.

daim with all due respect, you don't seem to know what you are talking about. You are discussion a serious issue around women's rights and don't seem to know the first thing about feminism, the GRA, intersexed conditions, the transition process, the law or quite frankly anything else to do with the arguments around self id.

Go away and do a bit of reading before you accuse the women on this board, who have been reading and talking about this for years, of not understanding their stats or their argument.

You might get a better response.

MissSusanSays please point me to a place where I have said something incorrect? I actually feel I know a lot more than many people on these boards. For example the mythical 'honour system' people talk about for 'genuine transsexuals' - there is no honour system as trans women are legally women and have all the same rights as biological women. The reason I asked the questions is because I am wondering if rad fems wished to remove these rights?

SarahCarer hi and yes all I can speak for is my own experience. Anyone here have kids? Did you feel they were born with their own little characters and identities? Because I definitely did with my DD. I am all for allowing children to express themselves however they like and not conform to gender stereotypes, but I do believe that some people genuinely feel they have been born into the wrong sex.

I don't walk around thinking "I'm a lady" and thinking lady-thoughts about glitter and ribbons. My body is my body, it's a female body. If I had a male body all my life that would be fine too, I imagine.

I present in a conventional female way, wear makeup, skirts, heels etc. I imagine if I was a man I'd be pretty gender conforming to male norms.

as trans women are legally women and have all the same rights as biological women

This is incorrect. Only trans identified males with a GRC are "legally women". The rest benefit from the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" and the need not to discriminate against males with this protected characteristic. As opposed to sex.

Also, the law acknowledges that even a GRC is simply a legal fiction, given that there are specific exemptions allowed in both the GRA and the EA.