Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

[daimbars]

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

but I do believe that some people genuinely feel they have been born into the wrong sex.

And most people recognise that is a serious psychological disorder, even if it does have a biological basis.

I actually feel I know a lot more than many people on these boards.

And yet you so sweetly ask for our opinions. Aaaaahhhh. So nice.

For the sake of argument.

Sorry that was an add on to my post Juells, not a response to you. That even if we agree there is something in that brain that makes people gender incongruent, however we define this, (which I don't) it doesn't make them the opposite sex.

@daimbars , of course we all have our own identities but that isn't the question that was asked.

Do you believe that all women are inherently alike in terms of personality and interests?

Herfemaleness no of course not and I cannot personally relate to the experience of being trans. But I do support the current GRA which legally recognises trans women as women.

But I do support the current GRA which legally recognises trans women as women.

Which, as I said, does not apply to all "trans women", as only a small percentage have a GRC, just like only a small percentage of them have surgery and many don't ever want or intend to have it.

Also I'm just going to keep repeating that it's disingenuous to claim the law recognises trans identified males as being exactly the same as women when there are exemptions.

Why do you think there are exemptions?

daimbars wrote - "Anyone here have kids?"

I know it's often not wise to assume things, but I think that assuming that some of the posters on this thread have kids is at the more likely end of the assumption spectrum - this is Mumsnet, a parenting forum.

If there isn't a common personality or set of interests held by all women that is easily distinguishable from the different personality and set of interests held by all men, how can anyone who is a man say that they are in fact a woman? What criteria are they using to ascertain their belonging in the category, woman? Dysphoria is a different kettle of fish, but having an extreme dislike of ones own sexual organs does not make you the opposite sex.

Distinguishing by sex is dead easy. Penis and bollocks = man. Vagina and womb = woman. It isn't water tight, there are people who don't quite fit but it's a damn sight better system of classification than this new alternative.

daimbars wrote - "the current GRA which legally recognises trans women as women."

I think a problem with that is the meaning of "trans woman" has become very much wider, since the GRA became law.

I think the point of the GRA is that it introduces into law the legal fiction that male people with a GRC will be treated in law as if they are women. I think that is much narrower than your claim that it "legally recognises trans women as women."

I also feel that if I was born with the mind I have now but looked down and saw a penis and hairy chest I would be pretty upset about it.

I would be fine with it

I think dh may have a few issues

I think that claiming that the GRA recognises "trans women as women" would be like trying to claim that child adoption laws (which also use the concept of legal fiction) recognise an adoptive mother as not only the legal mother, but also the biological mother.

As far as I know, the adoption laws don't go that far.

Do you believe that all women are inherently alike in terms of personality and interests?

Are you sure GC feminists don't think this? I've been told on here I can't possibly be a woman more times than I can count, based on some unspecified collection of stereotypes.

If I thought the tone would translate I might make a joke about considering identifying as non-binary!

Anyone here have kids? Did you feel they were born with their own little characters and identities?

To some extent. Their very different ways of relating to the world are at least partly innate. And my younger girl and boy are far more similar in all their hobbies, preferences and abilities than their older brother is to either of them.

Their sense of self, their confidence, their ideas for the future and their mental health, however, is strongly influenced by their environment and their peers (and, I presume,at least a bit by their parents).

Vesuvia but the law does recognise trans women with a GRC as women. Hence my question to the GC feminists is do you think the existing law should be repealed? Which would mean people would not legally be able to change sex.

If it was illegal to change sex do you think a person's gender dysphoria would blow over and they would learn to be happy in their own skin?

Or do you think there would be a lot of dodgy surgery and illegal hormone trading on the black market?

I suspect the latter.

I also feel that if I was born with the mind I have now but looked down and saw a penis and hairy chest I would be pretty upset about it.

But given that that is impossible and has literally never happened to anyone anywhere and could never happen to anyone anywhere it's not really the greatest argument is it?

I'd be pretty fucking surprised if I woke up and I'd turned into a camel, or a pot plant but I'm not going to found my worldview on the possibility of those things happening to me

but the law does recognise trans women with a GRC as women
Yes. And the law recognises adoptive parents are parents.
The law does not mean a) trans women are the same as biological women or b) adoptive parents are the same as biological parents.

For example. There is no point calling trans women for smears as they have no cervix. There is no point using the medical history of adoptive parents to assess risk of genetic illness in the child.

It is ridiculous to suggest that being treated legally as a woman actually makes someone a woman.

If it was illegal to change sex do you think a person's gender dysphoria would blow over and they would learn to be happy in their own skin?

I don't think anyone has said that they shouldn't have whatever surgery they like if it helps assuage their dysphoria. Some people have said that perhaps it is not wise (for a variety of reason) for them to be legally recognised as female.

In the context you refer to, I'm not entirely sure that it is ultimately a good idea for someone to actually believe, and be encouraged to believe that they are of the opposite sex.

They are not and they never will be, and myriad things will remind them of this. Probably better for mental health to come to some sort of acceptance of your body rather than constantly strive to reach the impossibility.

Vesuvia but the law does recognise trans women with a GRC as women.

Daimbars, this has been challenged as false by a number of people. How about you engage with it? it does not recognise TIMs with a GRC as fully women, as there are exemptions to this legal status. Stop asking people questions and ignoring their responses.

Or do you think there would be a lot of dodgy surgery and illegal hormone trading on the black market?

Gender reassignment genital surgery was a thing before the GRA. The GRA did not legalise it. You are disingenuously conflating several issues.

If it was illegal to change sex do you think a person's gender dysphoria would blow over and they would learn to be happy in their own skin?

Or do you think there would be a lot of dodgy surgery and illegal hormone trading on the black market?

Why do you assume that cosmetic surgery would become illegal if you were not allowed to legally change sex.
I don't understand your questions.

@RatRolyPoly

Are you sure GC feminists don't think this? I've been told on here I can't possibly be a woman more times than I can count, based on some unspecified collection of stereotypes.

I certainly thought you were a man. Not because of any collection of stereotypes on my part but because you seem to see things from a male point of view, and dismiss concerns women express.

you seem to see things from a male point of view

I didn't submit to any female socialisation - I credit my father for telling me I could be anything I wanted to be.

and dismiss concerns women express.

I assure you, I dismiss the concerns of both men and women at least equally, although I probably have less tolerance with men; and that is a fair criticism, and something I'm working on.

PS

@ RatRolyPoly

I didn't submit to any female socialisation - I credit my father for telling me I could be anything I wanted to be.

I didn't have to submit to any female socialisation, and neither my father nor mother ever told me I couldn't be anything I wanted to be. Always knew what I wanted to be, and that's what I am. It's important to stand with all women, as so many haven't been as lucky as I am.