Hi Mumsnet, if you are asking feminist women to consider whether Mumsnet is for them, please be clear that the space *we* made here is for *all* of us.

[leyat]

So apparently MNHQ is asking women they are suspending for saying things like men are men, to consider whether Mumsnet is for them.

I feel it's important to be clear that we want feminist women to have a home here, we - all the women who engage here - have made this board what it is (I'm relatively new so I am in awe of the women who have been shaping this wonderful space all this time) and we don't want women excluded from this space because they won't lie about biology and acquiesce to misogyny and genderism.

This is meant to be a kind of refuge for us, where we do not have to submit to male authority, where we can let off steam and share without needing to worry about dealing with misogyny, and where we can feel a degree of safety and find sisterhood. I can't think of anything more awful than a woman who comes here to share in this, in this one space we have that's meant to be ours, to then be told she should consider excluding herself because she won't bow to male authority on what a woman is.

So it needs saying, Mumsnet, this is a board for all feminist women, we don't want anyone excluded or made to feel that this space isn't for them too. And please understand many women come here from backgrounds of abuse, we do live in a climate of male violence and misogyny that is currently getting worse, so I hope MNHQ take time to ask themselves how they want to treat women who come here. Mumsnet own the site, but it's the women who use this space who made it the vibrant refuge of sisterhood and resistance that it is, so please don't shit on that or indeed on the women who actually engage on your forum.

Yep I had my lived experience dismissed on here recently - like WTF - that's where the gold is - all of us who get this stuff on a body level - we've had baptism by fire.

That's why many men don't like/see women - because they don't have that sixth sense - they dismiss it as though it doesn't exist - but it does and it's real. And they don't like us congregating to discuss it, as that knowledge and wisdom gets shared and other women are educated. They get "triggered" and can't contain their rage….

Some would like us back in caves with them guarding the entrance.

You know what's funny? The majority us are currently being even less naice and polite and obedient than we were a few days ago, because Shon's little stunt and MNHQs completely insane response have made a lot of us really fucking pissed off.

Own goal there, any and everyone who was hoping to reinforce compliance.

This is the thing. Channeling their anger and insecurity into bullying women for their cause is a psychological displacement activity. They will never be satisfied.

Yep I call it disordered but it's same thing - they don't contain themselves and "act out" - i.e. project their internal state onto women - we are to blame, don't you know, for all their distress/s And worse still, they enjoy the conflict and relish the hunt

Own goal there, any and everyone who was hoping to reinforce compliance.

As in DV, the abusers are trying to make us look like the problem. So to the uninformed onlooker (police) they mistake the women's rage for her being the source of the problem - a very flawed assessment

I wish there was a way to transfer that visceral feeling of recognition that you get when you see narcissistic behavior once you've dealt with it before to everyone reading along and trying to make sense of this stuff. Once seen it can't be unseen, and as unpleasant as the first exposure is it works like a flu jab, except this one lasts forever.

This is so true. I've never been on the receiving end myself in a personal relationship but I have volunteered in areas where training is required (which is why I keep suggesting this to MNHQ). Once the penny drops and you can see past all the sound and fury to the bare bones of what is actually happening - well, as you say, you can never unsee it. And it becomes blindingly, blindingly obvious.

Pointing Out the Bleeding Obvious is my new appropriate female-biologied slogan.

Could extend it into Pointing Out The Bleeding Obvious In Life for a better acronym.

I still remember the moment when I just stopped everything in the middle of one of my ex's cluster B moments, looked him in the eye, and said "I know what you're doing".

Probably lucky he didn't hit me, honestly, but damn did it feel good.

The way I see it is, those at the top with have decided on a policy. It's all new, so they had some training workshops and emails. But so much will depend on instinct, a sense, independent judgement. There are bound to be mistakes at first, that's how a policy gets honed. This is the 'snagging' where JRfoes round and says 'no in that situation we wouldn't have needed to suspend' etc. That's what I think.

This is proper shocking. I'm not even that vocal about the self id issue (although I am against it) and I wouldn't go near Twitter if you paid me, but for a massive and influential site like MN to invite trolls to actively target their members is appalling. MN is different to a host like Google or even Reddit I think in that MN does editorialise, and it has a journalistic slant (promotes campaigns, has guests etc) but they really need to own what Justine asserted recently about free speech.
Honestly, I think sometimes passion and over immersion can make some posters comments seem a bit over the top, but I would absolutely defend their right to voice their opinions without being censored by non members!
Bad move MN.

They won't be satisfied because they can't be. In the end, all they have is themselves. You can't sleep at night if you don't do right by people. We have the freedom of a clear conscience.

Ok, let me start by saying where I am the whole migendering thing isn't an issue.

I refuse to lie and have raised my children that way. I will not say a biological male can become a biological female.

So instead of using male/female pronouns I am going to use XX or XY

Bad move MN

And what explanations are we being offered? None. I feel badly let down by MN

"Just let the boys have your things, we'll pick you out something else" is sexist bs girls have had to deal with forever. Why would any grown woman who considers herself feminist suggest that we "let the boys have woman" - a fundamentally important word in our struggle for our rights, and in placing us alongside our foremothers in history and our sisters today?

Why should women sacrifice that quietly in an obviously doomed attempt to keep the boys happy?

They won't be satisfied because they can't be.

Because their actual battle is with reality, not with us. Even if MN and all other feminist spaces are swept away, reality will remain.

Yes Lang. Exactly that.

Someone on the mumsnet twitter account is encouraging vocal anti-feminist activists to screenshot women's posts here to slander them as bigots and report all of this by tagging them in on Twitter, a totally different platform to Mumsnet. Those activists reports on twitter are then being acted upon here on Mumsnet with deletions and disciplinary action on the women who are being attacked?

I don't know what on earth we are supposed to make of this. Who published those tweets, were they discussed within mumsnet admin beforehand, has Justine okay'ed them?

Why would any grown woman who considers herself feminist suggest that we "let the boys have woman"

Why not, if woman=person who wears skirts and has long hair.
I wear skirts. I also wear trousers. I don't change from woman to man, depending on what I am wearing because gender is irrelevant to me. But whether I am wearing a skirt or trousers I an always female, I am always XX.

Oh Mumsnet have no duty to provide a space for us to speak out political issues which affect women, or the theory involved in that - which is essentially what FWR is. They have no duty to do this because they are a business. A business which is based on women speaking to each other and because they have all those women in one place speaking to one another, advertisers can target those women. Like I say they are a business with no duty to us. Still once women aren't allowed to meaningfully speak to one another about their biology, about giving birth, about the realities of what that does to your body and your life, when they can't come and define male violence because they can't identify it then they can't get support, when all that happens the women will stop speaking. If the women stop speaking there is no one for the advertisers to advertise to and no business.

So they have no duty to us (beyond perhaps a moral and personal investment in women being allowed to speak because they are women too) no real duty at all. After all Mumsnet IS a business.

But woman doesn’t = person who wears skirts and has long hair. It means adult human female. You can’t let them change the meaning of the word to suit their intentions. Moreover once you say have woman as it means skirts and long hair they’ll take it and then go back to woman = adult human female, therefore they are female. It’s a one way street to erasure of women as a sex class.

First they came for 'Woman'.

Trust me when I say they will come for 'Female' next.

TRA's are fundamentally unhappy, feel inadequate, mean, aggressive; they will not be satisfied with owning Woman.

Well I guess it is something to think about - maybe Mumsnet isn't for me. I like to be able to state facts despite NOT being a scientist.

There's no point in making any compromises on the word woman or anything else at this point. They're already saying they are female as well as that they are women. There is no place to retreat to that TRAs won't come after. What they want is validation first and foremost and complete capitulation to that validation.

The only way to get anywhere with this is to have the discussion openly and in public. The reason they hate MN so much is because women outside their bubble are here in huge numbers and when they hear what the TRAs are saying they go WTF? swiftly followed by GTF!

The discussion needs to start at the point of divergence which is "what is the definition of woman / man?" then look at why we have sex segregation and are there areas where we can find a compromise.

It won't make the TRAs happy (and likely won't make me happy) but it is possible. However the TRAs know the majority of people think it's bullshit which is why they insist that any debate starts off with accepting that "transwomen are women".

Some people who are particularly vocal have already insisted on the 'female'

& others have dropped 'trans woman' in favour of 'woman with trans experience'
(whoever was interviewed alongside Lucy Masood on R4 Today)

Forgive me if this has been pointed out already.

All of these are headlines from Mumsnet campaigns, usually front-paging on the site at the moment:

‘PND is a type of depression that affects as many as one in 10 women during the perinatal period’

‘Pregnancy can be an emotional time and it’s not unusual to feel worried about what’s ahead. Research shows that many women experience mental health problems during pregnancy’

‘Today we're launching the next phase in our campaign for Better Postnatal Care, highlighting the impact of birth on women when it comes to things like prolapses, genital and/or anal wounds, and continence.

Figures we're releasing today reveal how many mothers are struggling with physical symptoms associated with prolapses or wounds, painful sex, and problems with continence, months or years after their babies were born.’

These statement are (a) common sense, or (b) deeply transphobic.

Which is it, Mumsnet?