Hi Mumsnet, if you are asking feminist women to consider whether Mumsnet is for them, please be clear that the space *we* made here is for *all* of us.

[leyat]

So apparently MNHQ is asking women they are suspending for saying things like men are men, to consider whether Mumsnet is for them.

I feel it's important to be clear that we want feminist women to have a home here, we - all the women who engage here - have made this board what it is (I'm relatively new so I am in awe of the women who have been shaping this wonderful space all this time) and we don't want women excluded from this space because they won't lie about biology and acquiesce to misogyny and genderism.

This is meant to be a kind of refuge for us, where we do not have to submit to male authority, where we can let off steam and share without needing to worry about dealing with misogyny, and where we can feel a degree of safety and find sisterhood. I can't think of anything more awful than a woman who comes here to share in this, in this one space we have that's meant to be ours, to then be told she should consider excluding herself because she won't bow to male authority on what a woman is.

So it needs saying, Mumsnet, this is a board for all feminist women, we don't want anyone excluded or made to feel that this space isn't for them too. And please understand many women come here from backgrounds of abuse, we do live in a climate of male violence and misogyny that is currently getting worse, so I hope MNHQ take time to ask themselves how they want to treat women who come here. Mumsnet own the site, but it's the women who use this space who made it the vibrant refuge of sisterhood and resistance that it is, so please don't shit on that or indeed on the women who actually engage on your forum.

Hear hear.

Male human beings are not women, no linguistic modifier can make them women. No amount of polite calling them women can make them women and no amount of giving them women's things can make them women.

The only purpose to us supporting/acquiescing to them being named as women is to try and get them to stop threatening and attacking actual women (with violence, legislation, "I'll hurt myself and people will say it's all your fault", etc).

But they won't stop.

" Information on Cervical Cancer and Support for Women, Family and Friends Affected by Cervical Cancer. Jo's Trust Cervical Cancer Trust."

"We were set up to save women’s lives by funding ground-breaking research focused on developing effective methods of risk prediction, earlier detection and developing screening for these women-only cancers" The Eve Appeal

*The national ovarian cancer charity working to save lives and help women diagnosed live their lives to the full, wherever they live in the UK." Target Ovarian Cancer

"We’re Ovarian Cancer Action – a UK charity dedicated to beating the sixth most common cancer in women. We want to empower women, to give them a voice, and to create a better future for the thousands of mothers, partners, sisters, daughters and friends affected by this disease."

"Action on Womb Cancer (AWC) is a UK charity dedicated to raising awareness of womb cancer, also known as endometrial or uterine cancer.
Womb cancer is a gynaecological cancer. It is the fourth most common cancer in women, yet very little is known about it. Action on Womb Cancer is changing this."

"We were founded by women with ovarian cancer themselves and are therefore especially sensitive to the needs of women with this devastating diagnosis. We have been supporting women affected by ovarian cancer and their families since 1996." Ovacome

In fact they will escalate.

I mean at the point that women are told to just give men what they want so they'll quiet down and leave us alone - it's basically just telling women to ignore and accept abuse, isn't it? I'm struggling to see how it isn't enabling abuse to suggest we should just shut up and let these male human beings have whatever they want, regardless of impact on us. It isn't just words, it's our connections to each other, our internal thoughts about ourselves, our ability to communicate honestly. Take these away and what is left?

It's ok everyone.

The Twitter account set up specifically to get Mumsnet shut down is saying that they're not trying to get Mumsnet shut down, so we can all relax.

They just want women to shut up about being erased, as Shon so kindly pointed out we are being. And to just enjoy that erasure, as Shon also suggested we do. They're an interesting one, that Shon.

I don't really care if men say they are women, or female, or unicorns.
I'm happy to refer to trans people as her or she. I don't even mind if they do have a fetish and like wearing women's clothes and call themselves whatever they like.
Whatever floats your boat.
For me the line is drawn when everyone is required to say that a man is a woman or else and therefore can have access to single sex facilities and all woman opportunities.
No. I can be as polite and considerate as I am required to be but I won't lie and I won't compromise my space ( and more importantly the space of female children) for men. Let men be polite and kind and compromise. It's about time, surely?
I can't actually beleive how spineless MN are being by not sticking by women. Women are your brand ffs!

Chris Rock made an interesting comment about that, I wonder if anyone saved it? Basically, you're entitled to your belief, but to what extend am I required to play along with it?

Of course he's a man so the outrage faded quickly.

others have dropped 'trans woman' in favour of 'woman with trans experience'

Surely a 'woman with trans experience' would be a transman, maybe detransitioned?

They have already got the word woman. None of the politicians in this country would dare to state 'transwomen are men', but there are plenty ready to spout the 'transwomen are women' (2+2=5) mantra. They are already coming for 'female'. To say a transwoman is male is deemed transphobic, see? twitter.com/mumsnetreport/status/991794604700774401

Just an aside, but AngryAttack in the middle of one of my ex's cluster B moments

Please do not call them this. Call out narcissism, don't sweep up abused, traumatised women, given the BPD label (also cluster B if anyone wonders) and maligned by psychiatry, into the same mental category as those who abused them. It's disgusting that psychiatry does this, no need for feminists to join in. Especially given the history of feminism/women and psychiatry.

...

I'm wondering what threats the TRAs have made to MN, or individuals at MNHQ - pure speculation, but we know how it ges with angry men...

Do we actually know if anyone was banned?

That warning is par for the course if there has been repeated posts deleted.

I'm just suspicious that we're being wound up and set off to turn on MNHQ to piss them off. We've had an influx of obvious transphobic trolls attempting to 'prove' we're transphobic for twitter, no reason why more subtle ones won't join or claim to be banned for GC views on twitter to get us riled up.

Yup, I'm not giving up our language, and even if MNHQ got rid of the FWR board there would still be discussion all over the site that would then get deemed transphobic because the TA's won't stop there.

Someone posted that last night they were at a play about endometriosis and when leaving at the end, they overheard someone say it was transphobic, when all it had done was cover a female issue. I also saw a post on twitter the other day asking women not to be called mothers, or mothers to be if they were pregnant, cos transphobia; something that isn't unusual. So even Mumsnet's friggin site name would be challenged if these TA's got their way. There is just no end to it.

I don't know the history of other sites like this, I've mostly been a Twitter user, but Mumsnet, while I do very much sympathise with their position, will be setting themselves up for a shitstorm of massive proportions if they don't make it clear now that they are allowing freedom of speech on their site, taking a stand for that, being clear that only actual hateful comments towards any group, i.e. comments that are inherently hateful, not comments that are simply a refusal to uphold an ideology, will be deleted (as well as those that break their general posting guidelines). And they should immediately stop allowing Twitter reporting, citing the fact that Twitter users are linking Mumsent acc's to Twitter profiles without the permission of Mumsnet acc users themselves, including that of a pregnant woman and another woman who does not use her Twitter acc for GC posts. Mumsnet need to protect their users from this, not encourage it.

Lastly, I just want to highlight that the TA's want us off MN cos the fact MN has such a high level of users and really is the largest online space for women in the UK, combined with the fact that the FWR board is so resolutely gender critical, exposes their lies that everyone basically agrees with them except for a few women on twitter. So we should keep engaging on here imo, actually I'm engaging more now because of their attacks on the site. I really don't think MNHQ will shut down the feminism boards, plus that wouldn't prevent users from discussing the issues anyway, I mean are they gonna ban all feminist chat relevant to any part of the site or all feminist users? Can't see it. But I do think they should post to tell us what rules they are changing re posting, what stance they are taking, and reaffirm their commitment to having this board available for women.

People on this thread say someone was permabanned but I don't know who.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3238536-Mumsnet-encouraging-brigading-by-Twitter-TRAs?watched=1&msgid=77582974#77582974

MissMoney, with respect, consider that another woman's recounting of her confrontation with a controlling, potentially dangerous man may not be the appropriate moment into which to insert your educational comments about psychiatry. I think most women here know how the BPD diagnosis intersects with feminist issues, and if not and that's something you'd like to discuss further you surely figure out a way to do so without attempting to control other women's language.

I use Cluster B as a grouping because it also contains ASPD, which was in fact my ex's primary diagnosis, and there's quite a bit of overlap with NPD.

Today it's 'transphobia,' tomorrow it could be anything.

It's really short sighted to let a small group of activists dictate Mumsnet's content.

@flavia I was told this on Twitter by someone I've engaged with on there for a while that she had just been suspended. I've no reason not to believe her, especially since other women have said they have had posts deleted for really daft stuff. But I think MNHQ should tell us their rule changes/what they're doing so we can better understand what is going on. I had no idea this email was a standard msg either, but my points stand.

"Someone on the mumsnet twitter account is encouraging vocal anti-feminist activists"

Huh? I have missed this - do you have a link or ss?

given the BPD label (also cluster B if anyone wonders) and maligned by psychiatry, into the same mental category as those who abused them

I thought it's long been known that male psychiatrists gave the misdiagnosis of BPD to traumatised women in the past, rather than complex trauma or CPTSD - hasn't that changed at all? It is disgusting if it hasn't. Because that's the problem, not the use of Cluster B label for hostile men. Not trying to be provocative just teasing out the issue.

I'll think about your feedback as I use Cluster B often to describe hostile men, as do many (I reference Sandra L Brown and her work with Cluster Bs). And whilst the numbers are not comparable by any stretch of the imagination, she contends that the correctly diagnosed BPD women (i.e. hostile) were as bad as their male peers.

I'm still trying to figure out what's going on with MNHQ in all of this. Where is Justine? Nothing has been heard from her in a while, and a lot of recent mod decisions seem at odds with her public statements. It's hard to tell if what we're seeing is panicked flailing, some sort of strategy we haven't been informed of, or the beginning of a process of sweeping the site of troublesome commenters via tightened moderation.

I fear that Justine's article was pure lip service - I feared that all along. For all the rhetoric about not being bullied and standing firm - we suddenly seem to be in the middle of a total purge of opinions that are nothing new - we've always called a spade a spade and something with a willy a man.

The moderating on here as a whole lately has got incredibly inconsistent depending on who's on duty, what day of the week it is and what biscuits were in the biscuit tin at the office. It's not been just in here - but the Alfie Evans threads were very inconsistently done at times as well and there's been some "wtf" stuff across the less emotionally charged parts of the site.

Maybe they've just hired some more rogue interns...

AAK - interesting what you say about Chris Rock and outrage fading.

The 'banned' or suspended accounts, as far as I see are women only. I've retweeted and initiated responses for months ( male here) with no enforcement of a banning policy. fwiw my twitter thing is @CoyleRobert - which directly outs me but that's okay. I don't mind my dots joining up at all, over such a cause. I did spend teenage years fighting the NF ( on occasion literally) so this is similar..but different.

Just about all of the 'likes' and the like have been female and specifically radfems. But what me and my mate Chris say has no attraction to the banners. It's just the women that get done.

Been blocked by Owen Jones and Lilly Madigan, obvs.

Either that or started passing out the gin at lunchtime.

Well yeah, I mean those two have probably blocked themselves by accident a few times.

It's almost like there's a connection between being a TRA and sexism. Almost as if there might be a connection to another movement with an awfully similar acronym...

I'm still trying to figure out what's going on with MNHQ in all of this.

I think someone high up in Mumsnet must be on board with the TRA agenda, whether for reasons of expediency or ideology. I don't think it's just the interns.

Have you seen this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3238536-Mumsnet-encouraging-brigading-by-Twitter-TRAs?pg=7

Apparently the whole Twitter thing wasn't how it seems at all and we're all just misunderstanding and....

I'm not buying it. I think someone decided to throw the TRAs a bone in the form of allowing them to have a few commenters to chew on.