Hi Mumsnet, if you are asking feminist women to consider whether Mumsnet is for them, please be clear that the space *we* made here is for *all* of us.

[leyat]

So apparently MNHQ is asking women they are suspending for saying things like men are men, to consider whether Mumsnet is for them.

I feel it's important to be clear that we want feminist women to have a home here, we - all the women who engage here - have made this board what it is (I'm relatively new so I am in awe of the women who have been shaping this wonderful space all this time) and we don't want women excluded from this space because they won't lie about biology and acquiesce to misogyny and genderism.

This is meant to be a kind of refuge for us, where we do not have to submit to male authority, where we can let off steam and share without needing to worry about dealing with misogyny, and where we can feel a degree of safety and find sisterhood. I can't think of anything more awful than a woman who comes here to share in this, in this one space we have that's meant to be ours, to then be told she should consider excluding herself because she won't bow to male authority on what a woman is.

So it needs saying, Mumsnet, this is a board for all feminist women, we don't want anyone excluded or made to feel that this space isn't for them too. And please understand many women come here from backgrounds of abuse, we do live in a climate of male violence and misogyny that is currently getting worse, so I hope MNHQ take time to ask themselves how they want to treat women who come here. Mumsnet own the site, but it's the women who use this space who made it the vibrant refuge of sisterhood and resistance that it is, so please don't shit on that or indeed on the women who actually engage on your forum.

Until vexatious complaints are treated as harassment, plus the complainants given consequences, the narcissists will continue to pull strings and bully by proxy

I think Mumsnet staff should, at the very least, all go and do the online Freedom Project. Perhaps then, finally, they might see the dynamics at work here.

Thanks Mogle amd Flomper. That sounds easy enough! Don’t want to be doscussing chestfeeding on here with my mammary glands

As a scientist, censoring biological facts would indeed make me wonder if this site is for me I don't do woo.

I’m also a scientist. I also don’t do woo.

I also think the idea of codifying belief is the slippery slope to insanity.

Just think about it for a minute MNHQ - all those dystopian future books and films where some seemingly crazy repressive regime is in charge - this is how it starts. It’s not tanks in the street from the off, it’s snall subtle things, then a few of the following

Policing of language
Mobbing of dissenters
Whipping up outrage
Reduction of law based fact based safeguards

Then it gets nasty
Shooting (or reporting, that’s already happening) all the academics, the intellectuals. Anyone who is pointing out anything factual.
Modification of the law to codify a belief structure.

And then we’re in Gilead. Or Iran. Or Pakistan where you can be butchered for being an atheist blogger. Or KSA. Or yes, we’ve always been at war with EastAsia. And two plus two has always been five.

Now I don’t know about you, but I think our current society, imperfect though it is, is absolutely miles better than any of the absolutely charming theocracies on this planet in terms of human rights.
I protested when Blair tried to get his blasphemy laws through. I will protest this too.

mods need coercive control training from a specialist provider. You need to stop twitter reports immediately.

That’s a start.

I am starting to think that Becca Riley-Cooper has a point and we should let the word 'woman' go.
There is gender, a social construct - described by man and woman.
There is sex, biological reality - described by male and female.
So if anybody wants to describe him/her/itself as 'woman' then go fill your boots. But 'female' is not up for discussion.
We can turn this around by telling them that they can appropriate 'woman' if they want but they will never be 'female'. They never define what a woman is, so we need to define was female is. Let them have a pyrrhic victory.

They want all our words.

Angry: I did not agree to this forced, abusive marriage between feminism and trans activism, and I want a divorce.

Ahhh, don't we all. I could think of far better things to do with my time that repeat sanity/reality. It's like being a defacto hostage really. But I won't ever develop Stockholm over it. The stronger their tactics, the more my resistance.

senua, no, they get NONE of our words. None. doctor is correct, they want ALL our words, and won't stop until they have them. There is already too much conflation calling TWs 'female', it's in the legislation and everywhere else.

Brava OP.

This is one of the few spaces left online where women can speak their truth without being dissmissed, attacked, shut down or accused of bigotry.

Tssdncop what is this? Who is suspended, what is going on?

I'm just reading in but already I imagine a silent protest camp growing at the Millicent statue.

Also a scientist, and I agree with babel and BigChoc.

Breastfeeding, gynae issues, relationships, all will eventually become 'transphobic'.

YY. I've just seen a thread about endometriosis!

That'll be the next thing, TRAs will realize that endo is a thing that exists and claim that they get it too. If you can experience cramps in your nonexistent uterus then why not?

There is already too much conflation calling TWs 'female', it's in the legislation and everywhere else.

Unconflate it then! Make legislators realise that sex is a biological reality - with huge consequences - and that gender, if they really believe in equality, should be a redundant measurement. We don't gather data on what colour people die their hair, on whether they are goths or punks, whether they like Corrie or EastEnders, etc, etc. Why collect data on whether people present themselves to the world as (stereotypical) men or women?
We need to do away with the idea of gender but keep the reality of biological sex.

We need to do away with the idea of gender but keep the reality of biological sex.

Hear hear. The thing is they don’t want that. They want to co opt the sex as well. There are howls of transphobia for even discussing breastfeeding. Vaginas must be called front holes.
They don’t want to have the distinction. They want to own the sex quantifior too.

I understand her argument and in a reasonable world I’d be with her, but they don’t want any kind of compromise - only total erasure of women as a sex will do

We need to do away with the idea of gender but keep the reality of biological sex.

Gets my vote.

Well this seems as good a time as any to post a link to this thread by a trans woman, who seems fairly clear on what gender and sex are (there are a few holes by someone who deleted their posts).

Jenn is a Canadian version of our Miranda Yardley, speaking out against the TRA agenda, publicly stating facts like "sex is fact, gender is feelz" etc. So would they be allowed to say so here?

www.facebook.com/jennsmith64/posts/902565646584177

(Sidenote: on their profile it says "To see what he shares with friends, send him a friend request.")

The way many people use "gender" they mean "personality". Great, but there are 7 billion ish of those so as a method of classification maybe not the best way to go.

And Babel agree that the abusive ‘activists’ (angry narcissists) want to erase women, that’s the logical conclusion of their arguments/complaints. And it’s how narcissism works (seeking erasure of non compliant people who won’t reflect the narcissist’s view of their self) .. as many of us can describe having encountered it before. You can’t unrecognise it.

I am starting to think that Becca Riley-Cooper has a point and we should let the word 'woman' go

Over my dead body.

What will they go for next if we give them woman. And you can be sure they will go for something afterwards. Look at the way they are behaving over this FWR board. Complete capitulation is all they’ll accept. Shon Faye posted on twitter that he’ll keep badgering MNHQ and their advertisers until Shon gets Shon’s own way. TRAs will do the same with everything.

You cannot allow them to “win” even the slightest concession from you. They won’t be grateful. They won’t think well we’ve got woman so maybe we’ll let them keep menstruation or breastfeeding. Narcissists don’t work like that. They don’t compromise and if you stand up to them even once the only acceptable outcome for them is your total destruction.

Justine stood up to the TRAs in The Times. Now the TRAs and their handmaidens are seeking to take down Mumsnet. They cannot be given an inch.

I wish there was a way to transfer that visceral feeling of recognition that you get when you see narcissistic behavior once you've dealt with it before to everyone reading along and trying to make sense of this stuff. Once seen it can't be unseen, and as unpleasant as the first exposure is it works like a flu jab, except this one lasts forever.

Once seen it can't be unseen, and as unpleasant as the first exposure is it works like a flu jab, except this one lasts forever.

Damn right.

Though they won't be happy even then, because nobody can be happy when their peace of mind requires a complete denial of reality.)

This is the thing. Channeling their anger and insecurity into bullying women for their cause is a psychological displacement activity. They will never be satisfied.

And yes Angry, entirely.

We need to do away with the idea of gender but keep the reality of biological sex.
Directly opposing trans ideology, which wants to do away with biological sex and base everything around the idea of gender. Insanity.

Their avarice is bigger than the world. If we were starving in a gutter, they'd be looking for some way to take the gutter from us.