Hi Mumsnet, if you are asking feminist women to consider whether Mumsnet is for them, please be clear that the space *we* made here is for *all* of us.

[leyat]

So apparently MNHQ is asking women they are suspending for saying things like men are men, to consider whether Mumsnet is for them.

I feel it's important to be clear that we want feminist women to have a home here, we - all the women who engage here - have made this board what it is (I'm relatively new so I am in awe of the women who have been shaping this wonderful space all this time) and we don't want women excluded from this space because they won't lie about biology and acquiesce to misogyny and genderism.

This is meant to be a kind of refuge for us, where we do not have to submit to male authority, where we can let off steam and share without needing to worry about dealing with misogyny, and where we can feel a degree of safety and find sisterhood. I can't think of anything more awful than a woman who comes here to share in this, in this one space we have that's meant to be ours, to then be told she should consider excluding herself because she won't bow to male authority on what a woman is.

So it needs saying, Mumsnet, this is a board for all feminist women, we don't want anyone excluded or made to feel that this space isn't for them too. And please understand many women come here from backgrounds of abuse, we do live in a climate of male violence and misogyny that is currently getting worse, so I hope MNHQ take time to ask themselves how they want to treat women who come here. Mumsnet own the site, but it's the women who use this space who made it the vibrant refuge of sisterhood and resistance that it is, so please don't shit on that or indeed on the women who actually engage on your forum.

Yup Bowl that is spot on, and Brenda let's make sure that doesn't happen. I know I am not going anywhere.

Totally agree. Being on here has totally shaped and reformed my feminism, and I’ve been able to pass that on to my daughter.

I come here for my feminism, and stay for the chat.

This site will be very much weakened without the drive and determination of the feminists.

Totally agree, Sheila.

And the rest of the boards will also be all the worse for not having the intelligent critical thinking and feminist analysis of the other issues discussed. Whether that be childbirth and birth injuries discussion, relationships, work life, childcare, benefits, sex, politics, breastfeeding...

Mumsnet would be SHIT if there was not a heavy (gender critical) feminist voice.

The "analysis" of gender critical feminism offered by the opposition is essentially "you're a mean bitch and you should shut up". Which is neither convincing nor particularly feminist.

It honestly seems to be pretty much all they have.

@AngryAttackKittens yup, whenever I ask for their counter to our gender analysis, i.e. their own gender analysis, they go silent. They will attack us for not agreeing with them, then when you ask them for the substance of their position they don't have anything because there is nothing there but some ill-judged sentiment, and as you say that sentiment is usually backed up by an aggressive intolerance. No wonder they don't want a debate. I would respect them more if they'd just say they think that women have a lady brain, at least the people who are honest about believing that are owning the fact that they are regressive af. But of course most TA's won't own that fact, because they are pretending to be progressive.

I still believe that most of the support out there for trans people is support for them to express themselves how they wish, and I think most people still think that those who have an issue with trans activism have an issue with their gender non-conformity. The more people realise that the challenge to trans activism is a challenge to the idea that women are essentially our social role, and to the idea that all we are is a bunch of gender stereotypes (and all the female erasure that comes with that), and is coming from people who support gender non-conformity (probably more than most) the more they will reject trans ideology and understand that trans people can have their own legal protections on the basis of being trans, and their own spaces, and as such trans rights doesn't mean that we need to lose any of our rights. At least I hope most people eventually realise this...

If anyone knew me irl the idea that I have an issue with gender nonconformity would have them pissing themselves with laughter. Maybe that's the approach to take when discussing this irl actually because it's so obviously ridiculous to anyone who knows my dating history.

Well, exactly. Twenty years ago I was getting abuse for sticking up for GNC/transsexual people. Today I'm getting grief for sticking up for women.

But my opinions haven't changed one jot.

I can't imagine any group of people more supportive of gender non conformity than gender critical feminists, I mean, we are the ones trying to break gender down. I think part of the issue is that most people don't question the idea that gender is at least to some degree innate. For eg, my mum thought it possible to be in the wrong body because she believes the brain to be somewhat gendered in the first place.

It's extra funny for me after years of MRAs screaming at me about how I just hate masculinity and want to steal it away from men.

(I mean, I do prefer men who're not macho in both a sexual and a friendship sense, but I don't much care about how randoms choose to construct their personas as long as they don't hurt anyone.)

The "analysis" of gender critical feminism offered by the opposition is essentially "you're a mean bitch and you should shut up". Which is neither convincing nor particularly feminist.

It honestly seems to be pretty much all they have.

And feels, don't forget the feels.
And perhaps it was on the basis of feels that hooked in so many female supporters of this rather obviously male-led 'movement', women are trained to put everyone else's feelings before their own?

I used to have a friend at school who very strongly felt that I was going to hell on account of being an atheist. I'm pretty glad that we lived in a country in which neither of us was able to impose our feelings about religion on each other.

I used to have a friend at school who very strongly felt that I was going to hell on account of being an atheist.

I did my PhD in genetics with someone like this. In genetics. Believed in the literal truth of the bible and spent her days looking at the ways proteins evolve. It taught me the true meaning of cognitive dissonance.

However both of us are civilised people who wouldn’t dream of telling the other what to think, but she did confess one day that she was upset because I was going to hell

I asked her which one. Since no one seems able to point out which specific hell, since each religion has their own and I don’t believe in any of their gods but perhaps there will be some kind of timeshare agreement?

In summary: people can believe some odd shit and will tie themselves in unbelievable knots to avoid challenge to their world view