Hi Mumsnet, if you are asking feminist women to consider whether Mumsnet is for them, please be clear that the space *we* made here is for *all* of us.

[leyat]

So apparently MNHQ is asking women they are suspending for saying things like men are men, to consider whether Mumsnet is for them.

I feel it's important to be clear that we want feminist women to have a home here, we - all the women who engage here - have made this board what it is (I'm relatively new so I am in awe of the women who have been shaping this wonderful space all this time) and we don't want women excluded from this space because they won't lie about biology and acquiesce to misogyny and genderism.

This is meant to be a kind of refuge for us, where we do not have to submit to male authority, where we can let off steam and share without needing to worry about dealing with misogyny, and where we can feel a degree of safety and find sisterhood. I can't think of anything more awful than a woman who comes here to share in this, in this one space we have that's meant to be ours, to then be told she should consider excluding herself because she won't bow to male authority on what a woman is.

So it needs saying, Mumsnet, this is a board for all feminist women, we don't want anyone excluded or made to feel that this space isn't for them too. And please understand many women come here from backgrounds of abuse, we do live in a climate of male violence and misogyny that is currently getting worse, so I hope MNHQ take time to ask themselves how they want to treat women who come here. Mumsnet own the site, but it's the women who use this space who made it the vibrant refuge of sisterhood and resistance that it is, so please don't shit on that or indeed on the women who actually engage on your forum.

Are people really suspended for stating scientific, biological fact?

Sounds it. And we've always been at war with Eastasia...

FWR is first.

Then it will be the boards talking about childbirth, infertility treatment, breastfeeding. Threads talking about periods. Then Relationships.

And if you're deleted by MNHQ for posting comments like "yawn", "bless" and the dictionary definition of a word, then AIBU and most other boards will fall soon after.

Are people really suspended for stating scientific, biological fact?

Yes.

MN deleted a post the other day by Cote which had the dictionary definition of the word female.

@berkinbag I was talking about the FWR space.
That’s a lot of unsubstantiated conclusions you jumped to there.

@JustineMumsnet what's going on?

Didn't you recently go loud on a Times article saying people should be allowed free speech/to be able to discuss things?

Why have your mods apparently shifted to more aggressive stances? Is there something new you need to tell us about your site's position?

Or are you seeing more trolls sign up to post really horrible things and then getting regular users caught up in those bans?

I have absolutely no IT knowledge but if someone has - could we have our own online platform to diacuss the bleeding obvious? There was a talk about it several months nack on one of the threads - surely some IT people are on here, not all in the other camp

Totally agree OP

@DrinkFeckArseGirls the gender critical subreddit board might be a good place to decamp if it comes to it. Maybe we should be saying that on these boards more often.

There nothing stopping us setting up a reddit site

Could MNHQ clarify if they are genuinely suspending posters for saying men remain men ?

If so, that is genuinely shocking censorship

I agree the TRAs won't stop at FWR
Next step would be to censor how posters discuss fundamental aspects of biology that men don't share:
menstruation, infertility, BF, birth, birth injuries, meno, MALE violence …

Women who never look at FWR could be seriously affected once the principal of TRA censorship has been surrendered

It's not even censoring views, but punishing posters for stating scientific facts

By definition, women & girls are homogametic, with two of the same kind of sex chromosomes, XX,
whereas boys & men are heterogametic, with both X and Y chromosomes, typically XY but very occasionally XYY or XXY

Chromosomes are not altered by taking hormones, having surgery, wearing dresses & makeup, or claiming to be women.
Even if millions of other people join in the game of "Let's Pretend", the biology is unchanged.

As a scientist, censoring biological facts would indeed make me wonder if this site is for me
I don't do woo.

If the "Intelligent Design" religious lobby (already powerful in the US) report bomb those who post facts about evolution, would MN cave in and suspend the evolutionists in response ?

Link here to GenderCritical on Reddit.

which would be interesting imo as then maybe the press would make comment on 4chan et al and all the other homophoboc and mysoginist and rascist comments on that and other subs that promis actual never mind literal violence, instead of berating MN which is positively pedestrian compared to that mob.

Do we know if any FWR posters have been suspended for this - is there a list ?
If so, we must support them - or the situation will only worsen for feminists

I don't want to be driven off the most popular UK womens site to a subreddit ghetto

As Posie and Sonic and others says this narcissistic rage filled ‘activism’ is about an extreme fringe (and I emphasise clearly not your average person with gender dysphoria who is just getting on with their life) who appear to be seeking to stop women speaking or having female bodies, ie existing as humans, because those voices and bodies offend them so much. Head tilty reminder: There’s no right not to be offended.

I find lots of gender stereotyping offensive and on good days, laughable, but there are other ways of challenging thought that you don’t agree with than physical attacks or threats, social media attacks and threats and silencing.

But the key thing that everyone needs to understand (just look in Relationships) is that narcissistic tactics are about creating a silencing culture that grows and grows and it can’t ever be satisfied. It never stops with the latest demand even when you cave in to that.

I thought this article which another FWR poster put up a while ago is really interesting on this point: sorry I can’t recall who posted it but HT to them:

unremediatedgender.space/2018/Jan/dont-negotiate-with-terrorist-memeplexes/

Beer: Do you think that if you concede something they will back off? They won’t , they want all of us on our knees. You’ve just succeeded in disempowering yourself and us.

Absolutely.

Posie: First they'll silence the feminists, then language around birth, breastfeeding this narcissists won't stop.... they are incensed by women who don'\t buckle. All the libfems who are currently allies to trans women will find themselves coming second.... they are too stupid to see this. Narcissists have to win at all costs.

Sonic: FWR is first. Then it will be the boards talking about childbirth, infertility treatment, breastfeeding. Threads talking about periods. Then Relationships.

That is the TRA longer term game plan, for sure.

I have already seen it happen to a successful feminist board or two, years ago. First they let the T in, then 'shushed' the feminists for saying anything meanie/challenging against the trans dogma. Now they are boring sht sites that hardly anyone visits. So currently, we are up to Stage 2 here, 'shushing the feminists'. From there it is about a year into decline, and that shtful stripey pink and blue flag is planted.

If MNHQ think that letting the FWR board just die in the arse is no biggie, they have badly misjudged the situation. Breastfeeding, gynae issues, relationships, all will eventually become 'transphobic'. These are the standard tactics of the TRAs. So successful, they keep using them.

Anyone with working knowledge of DV abuser tactics pegs it straight away. Sadly, for the women in denial that they are in such a situation and still believing "he still loves me, really", are very hard to get through to, and will keep defending the abuser with stuff like "but it is me causing the problem, I just have to work harder at the relationship and it will all be back to the way it was in the beginning." We know that won't work, and the situation will worsen.

Lose your sense of self, or get out of the situation (or stand your ground is the alternative to get out for websites). These are really the choices on the table.

Excellent post

Cross-posted with Chatty. We are on the same page, clearly.

Yep

Precisely, LaSqrll. I did not agree to this forced, abusive marriage between feminism and trans activism, and I want a divorce.

I think Justine firmly pinned her colours to the mast when she went out to the broader media saying she had a problem with no platforming of women on this issue. She has given a platform and thread after thread exists with posts from women saying they do not consider transwomen as women because clearly biologically they are not. These threads and posts are left to stand. MNHQ is not a hive mind anymore than the rest of us are so there may well be trigger happy moderation going on since we know that there have been dissenters among their ranks for their stance on offering women that platform. I think though we have to be grateful to MN for the actual public stance they have taken on the promotion of free speech around this issue.

LaSqrll x-post
Totally agree with you, we (and MNHQ) need to call out these abusive, silencing tactics.

I am not happy re the decision to delete posts re 'misgendering'.
Mumsnet has a choice here about how it is seen in the future.
I know it must be incredibly hard to be in this position, but I hope that the company decides that their role at this time in women's history makes it worth it.

The TRAs won't be happy until Mumsnet is Transnet.

(Though they won't be happy even then, because nobody can be happy when their peace of mind requires a complete denial of reality.)

If it’s true that you are suspending posters for stating biological reality, @MNHQ then that’s utterly disgraceful and sickening. Why are you capitulating to bullies?