Excellent article on the problem of transphobia

[crispbuttyfan]

www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/mumsnet-transphobia-online/

"Regardless of intention, it seems to me that Mumsnet has allowed transphobia to become associated with their brand through their inaction. These boards have now become nothing short of echo chambers, spaces in which anti-trans rhetoric is continually employed with little objection."

The evidence is apparent throughout the feminism board.
Where lies are spread with abandon and the truth is slandered as 'gaslighting'.

TERFragetteCity what is it specifically that you're unsure of or wish to query? how epigenetics work?

I'm not suggesting that a persons genotype XX, XY changes I'm simply saying their phenotype changes to such an extent that personally I would say they constitute phenotypic males or females

So is trans kind of like intersex then?

@Mumtobe25 are you at

@Mumtobe25 are you saying that transmen actually grow taller when taking cross sex hormones?

So is trans kind of like intersex then

Except the hormones come from outside the body.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

I've seen this theory in a few places - would this be an example of epigenetics, or is it a bullshit theory?

It's hard to say i'd say it's unlikely but epigenetics is a very complex subject things like hormones used on animals or pollution could in theory however have knock on epigenetic consequences but again so many factors can be at play at once it can be hard to pin point

So basically
Transwomen are more like women than men are like women.
Transwomen are not identical to women. They never can be.
I don't think any of us disagreed with that.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

So is trans kind of like intersex then, Except the hormones come from outside the body.

Pretty much but only similar great care has to be taken to distinguish these two groups of course and it's just my opinion but it's for the reasons of phenotype we categorize AIS girls as girls or female physically and Male syndrome boys as boys or males physically. Their underlying genetics being another matter.

Except the hormones come from outside the body.

And if the hormones stop?

I'm simply saying their phenotype changes to such an extent that personally I would say they constitute phenotypic males or females.

what are the changes in phenotype that you believe makes a trans identified male constitute a phenotypic female?

That is really interesting! Do the epigenetic effects ever effect the hard copy? So the famine mothers having small children, will that carry on, or stop as soon as the famine is over?

Ah! Interesting question. It kind of wears off after a few generations. The core code isnt altered, It ms basically little ‘stamps’ on top of it that affectcthe expression of genes. It seems to be a kind of short term extra layer of control.

The sex ratio allocation (again, I’ve done a bit of work on this) is very interesting too because we don’t really understand the mechanisms but we have some hints that other species can do this. In resource poor years, the red deer population on the island of Rum have more girls, probably because most females will mate, regardless of being a bit weedy, but a weedy stag is fecked- to be a successful stag you need to grow large and impressive so it makes sense to have fewer boys in lean years. We still don’t (or didn’t when I worked on it which was years back) know how the ratio skewing actually works. Preferential early termination of Male pregnancies? We just don’t know.

There is no genetic mechanism for humans changing sex after birth - you can’t do it. It’s set from the off. You can have cases (no doubt extremely distressing for the child concerned) where realnsex becomes more apparent at puberty but these are very rare cases and don’t affect the fact that human sex are boundary.

I’m not your opponent mummy but I don’t like seeing science misused to make a point on here. Your understanding is flawed and incorrect in many of the examples you are giving

things like hormones used on animals or pollution could in theory however have knock on epigenetic consequences

Wearily, you keep using that word. It does not mean what you think it means 🤦🏻‍♀️

drspouse

Transwomen are more like women than men are like women. Transwomen are not identical to women. They never can be. I don't think any of us disagreed with that.

I don't think a lot of trans or intersexed people would disagree with this either. I think my main issue comes from knowing this but still calling trans women or trans men : men or women respectively when biologically speaking I know that's not entirely true if they're closer phenotypically to women or men respectively I see no reason to to say they're not at least physically but again that's just what I conclude based on the information given to me feel free to disagree.

feel free to disagree

Which sort of brings us back to the point of the thread. Do people who disagree deserve to be called ‘transphobic’?

I don't think I said transwomen are closer to women than they are to men.
I said they are closer to women than men are to women.

I really like it when people say 'feel free to disagree'. Exactly. People should be free to disagree and not be told a subject is not up for debate and that the forum they are using is transphobic.

I can tell you're not a very experienced biology teacher Mumtobe, and I can also tell that Bowlof is a knowledgeable scientist whose comments I agree with.

Hang on, isn't a male 'of the sex that produces small gametes'? Changing some phenotypes doesn't change all that internal stuff (clearly not a scientist).

chickendrizzlecake

Which sort of brings us back to the point of the thread. Do people who disagree deserve to be called ‘transphobic’?

well no of course not transphobic people deserve to be called transphobic; People that go out of their way to misgender people who have done nothing wrong because of a perceived asociation with other trans people that may have hurt them. and people that say things like transwomen are predatory or violent.

@Mumtobe25

if they're closer phenotypically to women or men respectively

I'm really interested in learning what you mean by this.

#postandrun

TERFragetteCity what is it specifically that you're unsure of or wish to query? how epigenetics work?

Well yes, an explanation of what it is in the first place.

Why not start again, so from start to finish in one post, explain how what you said happens please. Paragraphs and sentences, with no need to separate points in different posts. You can start from DNA giving a blueprint. So what happens at the start of a transition. Thanks.

But again we're back to this:

I can tell you're not a very experienced biology teacher Mumtobe, and I can also tell that Bowlof is a knowledgeable scientist whose comments I agree with.

"I like what this other person is saying therefore you have nothing of value to say and this person is right and you therefore aren't good at teaching because you personally believe this thing to be true."

But for what it's worth I really did appreciate you listening to me TURFragette and goingtobefine it was nice to actually be listened to for once rather than just being dismissed for a while

Do people who disagree deserve to be called ‘transphobic’?

No.
‘Phobic’ behaviour has a definition. It’s the same as discrimination against someone for anybprotected characteristic.

If I fire Sarah because she is Christian, or abuse her for her religion in the street, or deny her her freedom of worship I am a. An asshole and b. Breaking the law.

If I discuss my dislike of/disagreement of the tenets of Christianity in public or in private in a setting that does not directly disadvantage Sarah then I am neither breakingvthe law nor behaving imorally.

It is VITAL to be able to discuss, and question, and yes, mock and ridicule an ideology. no ideology has the protection of law (thank fuck, despite Blair trying to get blasphemy laws on the books...)

Would I discriminate against, mock or disadvantage a trans individual? Absolutely not. They have rights and deserve to participate in society without fear.

Will I assert my right to pick apart the TRA ideology? Goddamn right I will. I think it’s deeply damaging to the safety of women and girls.

Ideology is not and can never be protected in a free society. Every single society that does protect ideologies is a basket case.

Well she is clearly wrong or they wouldnt need facial feminisation surgery, that's a spectacular phenotype. And, although it grows a bit, the clitoris never responds appropriately to testosterone. That's because there are still XX chromosomes and no Y. It also depends on the historical development of the individual.