Excellent article on the problem of transphobia

[crispbuttyfan]

www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/mumsnet-transphobia-online/

"Regardless of intention, it seems to me that Mumsnet has allowed transphobia to become associated with their brand through their inaction. These boards have now become nothing short of echo chambers, spaces in which anti-trans rhetoric is continually employed with little objection."

The evidence is apparent throughout the feminism board.
Where lies are spread with abandon and the truth is slandered as 'gaslighting'.

That’s not epigenetics though.

That’s just normal (YAY I GET TO USE THE WORDS CIS AND TRANS IN THEIR ACTUAL CORRECT CONTEXT) cis and trans acting factors doin’ What they do.

Do you teach A level biology or GCSE?

So do trans individuals have new blueprints?
Because it's the blueprints that make us male and female IMU.

I am a scientist and I know a fair bit about epigenetics

I would also be very interested to hear the thoughts of BowlofBabelFish

Listening to two people discuss a subject of which I know little is a great way to learn.

Langcleg You make excellent points but I am genuinely interested in how epigenetics / transcriptome / proteome influences sex.

It doesn’t. The PP is not using any of the terms correctly. It’s a science word salad.

Gimmie one example of a mammal that genuinely changes actual sex without any manual intervention of hormones and other drugs and surgery and I’ll listen to your sad faces and claims of teaching biology.

It doesn’t. The PP is not using any of the terms correctly. It’s a science word salad

Can you explain why? I know I sound like a deliberate derailer but I am genuinely interested. This argument, or varients, is one I hear a lot, and I don't know enough about the subject to know how factual it is.

So to sum up genetics are the set of blueprints but epigenetics as the name suggests are everything around genetics i.e. other genes or hormones that can interact with genes and affect that initial step from DNA to RNA.

Happy to answer Science and genetics based questions ;) fire away.

at first we biologists thought that genes are read and make proteins and that's that... it seemed simple enough and made a lot of sense but we then found out that there are other factors that affect what genes are read and which aren't... have I lost anyone. ?

No.

Okay so one of these factors can be proteins or steroidal molecules (hormones ) they can activate, enhance, repress or silence genes.

To use an analogy imagine your DNA is a set of blueprints for a building but there's lots of possible variations. these proteins and steroidal molecules in the analogy are different instructions given to the builders reading of the blueprints. Telling them which parts of each of blueprints the architect would like in the one final building.

Carry on. You can put more than one point in one post by the way.

So to sum up genetics are the set of blueprints but epigenetics as the name suggests are everything around genetics i.e. other genes or hormones that can interact with genes and affect that initial step from DNA to RNA.

Hi

Did you miss a post? We were at 'blueprints for final building'...

Happy to answer Science and genetics based questions ;) fire away

Can you comment on what mumtobe is saying? I sort of get it, genes aren't just switched on or off by default (DNA) encoding, they can be switched on or off by other external to DNA factors?

I can't not comment.

There is no doubt that we are learning so much more about genetic expression as a result of our environment. However, no amount of exogenous hormones will change an XY individual to XX. Estrogen may stimulate growth of breast tissue, (something both men and women already have), but it certainly can't grow ovaries or a uterus.

I'm sorry to be a bearer of disappointment, but there is no way to actually change from a biological male to a biological female. How one identifies is a different matter, but nature doesn't care one bit how you FEEL. Can we cure cancer simply by "presenting" as cancer free? Can my patients with Down Syndrome negate their extra chromosome by feeling deeply that they are genetically "normal?"

A person of science ought to know better.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine thank you for listening, basically; one of the ways we categorise sex is phenotype we all have the genetics or blueprints to express either a male or female phenotype we see this in male syndrome boys XX and AIS girls XY. We all practically start of female anyway, what determines their sex is epigenetic influence via other genes. I argue that in this way trans men on HRT do express their male phenotype their DNA that codes for things like facial hair, denser bone structure additional hight, shoulder width etc begins to be expressed and genes that coded for their personal female phenotype breast size, hip size, hight, fat distribution is repressed.

I was about to ask what part of the blueprints change a penis to a vagina and testicles to ovaries. Because I'm pretty sure that's not how epigenetics works.

Ha! Science word salad. I'm stealing that!

Thank you, Bowlofbabelfish.

So to sum up genetics are the set of blueprints but epigenetics as the name suggests are everything around genetics i.e. other genes or hormones that can interact with genes and affect that initial step from DNA to RNA.

No this is incorrect. That is not what epigenetics is.

The core DNA is what we think of as genes - simplistically one gene one protein (not quite like that but never mind.) a gene is a series of letters that tell the machinery in a cell to make a protein. ATCG - combinations of those letters encode instructions to make proteins. When a gene is read out to make a protein we say it is ‘expressed.’

Changes in the core code are what we call mutations - and they can stop a protein being made, or alter is so it gains or loses function.

Epigenetics is the manner in which the expression of genes is altered without altering that core code - little ‘imprints’ (methyl groups normally) are stamped onto the gene, at various control regions and they in effect can ‘shut down’ the gene.

What does this mean in reality? Well it means you can have a copy of a gene from each parent and they will be expressed differently. Loads of these genes are to do with growth. So for example the fathers genes are served by having a bigger offspring so ‘his’ copy drives foetal growth. The mothers genes are served by a normal sized baby so ‘her’ copy checks growth.

If you have imprinting (as this process of differential expression) fo wrong you can have all manner of disorders. Prader willi and beckwith wiedemann being two.

Imprinting amd epigenetics also seems to have quick effects across the generations - women who have babies in famine find those babies are smaller - that seems to be an epigenetic effect.

Anyway, it’s all fascinating stuff

It’s also absolutely chuff all to do with being transgender.

So epic detail there but you did ask and I do like banging on about it. As you were

However, no amount of exogenous hormones will change an XY individual to XX

So how do I answer the chromosome are meh argument. That hormone washes during development make the brain develop and perceive the body one way or another?

I am aware that folk probably make these arguments as they use long words and biological concepts that many (I) are not confidence enough in their understanding to confirm or refute, so they tend to just sit there unchallenged.

what determines their sex is epigenetic influence via other genes

No. No it isn’t. It really, really isn’t.

Sex is determined chromosomally, amd males are kicked down that pathway buvthe expression of the SRY region on the Y chromosome.

Am I howling into the wind here? I’ve seen thisvtactic quite a bit with TRAs - it is gebuinely science word salad.

Hi Mumtobe25

Can you provide links to the evidence/studies that demonstrate that RNA changes etc. that occur when taking hormones amount to a someone changing their biological sex. It is the first time I have heard about this and can find nothing on th'internet. I am genuinely interested and would love to read the original studies.

I don't doubt that you are a very good biology teacher and so I am sure you won't mind me asking for the evidential source documents.

Thanks in advance.

one of the ways we categorise sex is phenotype
In this case ovaries, uterus, naturally produced hormones, those hormones switching themselves on and off etc etc.
None of which happens in transwomen.

I'm sorry my own observations and facts lead me to conclude something differently to everyone else

I think this is a real part of the problem. Nobody can have their own facts. And they can't impose their own 'facts' onto others and then insist that they 'are not up for debate'. People will find a way to debate about reality however hard you try to stop them.

Apologies if I haven't formatted this post correctly, I'm quite new to Mumsnet, attracted by the openness and quality of discussion. Sometimes it's pretty robust and sometimes individuals say things that are out of order but it looks like those sorts of comments are dealt with by the moderators when it happens. This article looks to me like a series of cliches and personal opinions presented as facts which seems common these days and is poor journalism in my opinion.

So epic detail there but you did ask and I do like banging on about it. As you were

That is really interesting! Do the epigenetic effects ever effect the hard copy? So the famine mothers having small children, will that carry on, or stop as soon as the famine is over?

Sorry @mumtobe25 - I can't make head or tail of your mini-lesson plan so need to get all this into some order. I don't understand how this works but have put your posts together below...is the the correct order? I've put the summing up bit last but still don't get what happens:

at first we biologists thought that genes are read and make proteins and that's that... it seemed simple enough and made a lot of sense but we then found out that there are other factors that affect what genes are read and which aren't

Okay so one of these factors can be proteins or steroidal molecules (hormones ) they can activate, enhance, repress or silence genes.

To use an analogy imagine your DNA is a set of blueprints for a building but there's lots of possible variations. these proteins and steroidal molecules in the analogy are different instructions given to the builders reading of the blueprints. Telling them which parts of each of blueprints the architect would like in the one final building.

one of the ways we categorise sex is phenotype we all have the genetics or blueprints to express either a male or female phenotype we see this in male syndrome boys XX and AIS girls XY. We all practically start of female anyway, what determines their sex is epigenetic influence via other genes. I argue that in this way trans men on HRT do express their male phenotype their DNA that codes for things like facial hair, denser bone structure additional hight, shoulder width etc begins to be expressed and genes that coded for their personal female phenotype breast size, hip size, hight, fat distribution is repressed.

So to sum up genetics are the set of blueprints but epigenetics as the name suggests are everything around genetics i.e. other genes or hormones that can interact with genes and affect that initial step from DNA to RNA.

So no though my opponent is trying to straw man me into saying this I'm not suggesting that a persons genotype XX, XY changes I'm simply saying their phenotype changes to such an extent that personally I would say they constitute phenotypic males or females. that's my personal view and I wish they would stop trying to reduce what i'm saying before they even know what it is I'm saying. thank you for hearing me out ItsAllGoingToBeFine TERFragetteCity though p.s. sorry to pause between posts you have no idea how often my students ask me to slow down ... sometimes i'll start talking about uni grade things and their expressions glaze over (there was that one student though that understood it though we had a convo about biochemical pathways and ADP>ATP formation adenomas and imortalised cell lines best day ever but I digress)

Sex is determined chromosomally, amd males are kicked down that pathway buvthe expression of the SRY region on the Y chromosome

So is sex just too much of huge binary to change epigenetically.

www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/times-of-famine-linked-to-disproportionate-number-of-female-births-1110208/

I've seen this theory in a few places - would this be an example of epigenetics, or is it a bullshit theory?