Excellent article on the problem of transphobia

[crispbuttyfan]

www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/mumsnet-transphobia-online/

"Regardless of intention, it seems to me that Mumsnet has allowed transphobia to become associated with their brand through their inaction. These boards have now become nothing short of echo chambers, spaces in which anti-trans rhetoric is continually employed with little objection."

The evidence is apparent throughout the feminism board.
Where lies are spread with abandon and the truth is slandered as 'gaslighting'.

Tans women have their own agenda, and should become activists in their own branch of Trans Feminism, instead of hijacking those of biological women, and issues that are to do with those who are born Female, and only a biological Female can understand.

💤

I also do not understand what Tom thinks he can only have as Tina and not as Tom who likes stuff that girls like, too.

What were they like as a younger child?

At one extreme,if it's a sincerely held belief that has affected this child from tiny, then I think the answer is something vaguely like the ability to relax in their own skin and no longer feel as if they have a permanent itch by pretending to be someone alien to themselves.

At the other extreme, the answer might be 'access to teenage girls in a state of undress'.

Who knows?

Let's hope the school is providing a way to accommodate option A without risking pandering to option B.

Hmm, if by "excellent" you mean:

conflating screen grabs from a publicly available website with whistleblowing;

using a satirical post by one of your own supporters as "evidence" that the opposing side hold views which in fact none of them has espoused;

stating without argument "no debate"/"beyond debate", thus rather missing the point of the whole debacle;

and slagging off your former employer when you hope to get work in this or a similar area again;

then I suppose the article might just about qualify as "excellent." But you'd be working from a rather different definition of "excellent" to the rest of us, or indeed the dictionary. But since you're already working from a completely different definition of "woman" then I suppose what's one more Humpty Dumpty moment among many.

Why do we need two threads on this same article?

I see ‘Excellent article’ might be joining the growing list of words or phrases that are becoming meaningless.

"Excellent article" now means "it had words, and some links".

As the article makes specific complaints & allegations about #ManFriday, this is a link to an interview with Hannah Clarke who explains the origins and motivations in detail:

"HC: We are a group of women who oppose the push towards self-identification, both in law and in practice. We are concerned that self-identification removes gatekeeping to women’s identity, protected spaces, services, and roles. It also denies biology and women’s lived experiences of sex-based discrimination and violence.

We also want to ensure that current sex-based exemptions in the Equality Act are applied. The current push to base GRA on self-identification [if adopted, the legislation would replace the term “gender reassignment” with “gender identity,” meaning that Gender Recognition Certificates (GRC) could be issued without any conditions, by a process of self-declaration alone] has caused a lot of companies and service-providers to jump on a self-identification bandwagon and create policies that allow people to use whatever facilities they opt to. We are asking for the exemptions in the Equality Act to be applied, so that companies and service-providers, like [retail stores with changing rooms], swimming pools, etc. to enforce the exemptions which would allow for sex to have primacy over gender and that state we can have spaces separated by sex."

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/04/09/interview-uk-women-self-identifying-men-challenge-proposed-changes-gra-part-manfriday/

We're not all transphobic here some of us believe transwomen are women transmen are men, both deserve protection are welcome and trans people can be fantastic parents don't let the Sparticuses get you down hun you're loved. X

Most of us started out from a position of wanting to be nice, worrying about disadvantaged people etc. Then we stopped and thought about it. Really thought about it deeply. Then we looked at the people representing trans people in the media and news. We read some of the articles and watched some videos.

We saw aggressive, angry, entitled people demanding that women move to the back of the queue. We saw certain people's comments and slogans.

Those are not people we want to be nice to. They are not disadvantaged in any way they can't change. They are not nice to us.

We thought about it deeply and now think- sod it. They are not welcome in women's spaces, they are not women.

Welcome to mumsnet, Mumtobe25. Always interesting to get new posters bringing new viewpoints, shaking things up a bit.

In virtue of what do you think "transwomen are women transmen are men"? I'm really interested to know what I and D Muscato (a noted American transwoman) have in common other than shared humanity. I've never had a decent answer to this one, but you know, new poster, new perspective, you might be the one to finally answer the question.

You can find media for any group of people that paints them negatively how do you think racists, the alt right, Islamophobes and homophobes work? Please stop looking the worst of a group and actually become friends with them get to know them I have a lot of trans girlfriends and they are completely welcome here.

There are quite a few transwomen who feel very at home here, having been made unwelcome elsewhere.

I heard about that person, honestly I don't think they would have that much in common with me but here's the thing if they were civil I'd be civil back and yes I'm aware the whole suck my D thing but if they just would like to be called a woman or she and she can't take hormones because of an alleged heart condition I'd call her she. As for transitioned women my friends have been groped before sexually exploited I even had to talk one of them out of selling themselves, to pretend there isn't a female biological component to their existence is madness of course they are women and sometimes really need help they sometimes have no idea what they're getting themselves into when they become women or how dangerous it might become for them in certain situations. So to answer shortly shared experience with Danielle not much but shared strife with a lot of my trans girlfriends definitely sharing with them has only strengthened our friendship.

Mumtobe25 there are quite a few transwomen who are members of MN and who are gender critical.
I'm sure they will introduce themselves!

to pretend there isn't a female biological component to their existence is madness of course they are women

what is the biological component?

I heard about that person, honestly I don't think they would have that much in common with me but here's the thing if they were civil I'd be civil back and yes I'm aware the whole suck my D thing but if they just would like to be called a woman or she and she can't take hormones because of an alleged heart condition I'd call her she.

You have just contradicted yourself there. Telling women to suck his dick is not being civil. Hope that helps you in your quest whatever that may be.

What do you mean, though, when you say that males have 'a female biological component to their existence'? Are you saying 'men treat them badly, so they must be women, because lots of men treat women badly too'?

What is this biological component to femaleness other than having a female reproductive system (which may or may not work, lest we disappear down the rabbit hole of "but but but, women who're infertile, women with PCOS...")?

What dross.

Same old uninspired, hatefilled propaganda that TRAs regurgitate in every article they attempt.

Just very pathetic and embarrassing.

If only they devoted their efforts to what gender actually is. And to considering why a feeling in the head of a man has anything to do with the biological category with the female sex.

to pretend there isn't a female biological component to their existence is madness
Nobody pretends this. Though you will find gay men who have a) been sexually harassed (and indeed straight men, as it is a power thing for men to harass others, not a sex thing) and b) who sell sex.
There is not whoever an ENTIRELY female component.
Transwomen were not brought up as girls once someone noticed their genitalia. They will not have been pressured to stay back, be quiet, not be bossy, catch more flies with honey, not be aggressive, be the peacekeepers, wear impractical clothing, play with housework toys, I could go on but I have work to do.

Transwomen have never grown breasts and been harassed for them, nor have they had periods, been afraid they were pregnant, got pregnant, miscarried, had a still birth, given birth, breastfed, had a hysterectomy, gone through menopause etc. etc.

ONE aspect of female experience that isn't even exclusive to females does not make you female.

Cool I agree with gender critical people quite a lot I. E. being a cis/transwoman isn't about being feminine and being a cis/trans an isn't about being masculine. I remember it was so hard convincing my trans friend she doesn't need several pounds of makeup to feel comfortable in her womanhood. It's weird sometimes it's like she's from the 1950's or something but she's so much happier now. It makes me sad a lot of people that seem to have good intentions tell trans people their gender identity is based on stereotypes Idk from what I understand it's just whether you want to be your bio female or male self stereotypes don't have much to do with it. Anw I'm rambling apologies.

Their breasts their physicality their risks of certain diseases the way society treats them when percieved female the expectations on them the socialization aspect in general really and what's worrying is Imo they can be v susceptible to it I mean I see an advert that claims if I don't have such and such people won't think of me as very womanly or as a man. I can shrug it off I've had that nonsense all my life, but idk the fear my friends seem to have about not passing of being thought of as a guy or not a woman well I mean those sorts of adverts can really get to them... I mean think of it this way if you were called a man constantly to the point you wanted to kill yourself and some snake oil sales man comes a long and says waste your money on this stupid thing and it'll make you a woman this whatchu call it is what woman hoods all about bless them they'll believe that swindler. I've found just reminding her the real woman's what's under the mask has done wonders for her self esteem.

And we probably agree with you about more than you think. For instance if I met your friend I would be polite (as I am to the various transwomen I know in RL, all of whom are very nice people). I'm always relieved when my trans friends get past the "gatekeeping, must perform my shrink's version of femininity" stage and relax into presenting in a way they seem more comfortable with day-to-day (and which to me comes across as less of a stereotype).

But that doesn't change the fact that I believe certain spaces and activities should be single sex, because there are a small number of circumstances (less than 1% of my daily life) where biological sex matters. My non-negotiable list is women's prisons, women's communal changing rooms, women's rape crisis centres, women's domestic violence and homeless shelters, and women's sport.

The rest of life - meh, knock yourself out. I don't care how you dress, what you call yourself. I want you generic you) to find housing, jobs, live free from harrassment and hte threat of violence, have all the same human rights as the rest of us.

But not women's rights, because when you dig down (reproductive rights, right to free assembly away from the threat of male violence, rights which protect our employment against threats to it due to childbearing) - all specifically women's rights have their roots in biology.

I never said males have a female component or any of what you just said your putting words in my mouth