Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

Silencing debate on this issue is collusion.

Why was the thread deleted?

Deletion message - Message from MNHQ: While we can see there's been some interesting discussion but we think that accusations of 'cheating' aren't really in the spirit - and so we're taking this thread down.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level.

Exactly. Being fair about this is just as important at grassroots level as it is in the Olympics. Otherwise where do you stop?

I'd hazard a guess that it got swiftly deleted after the transphobic remarks made at the end had something to do with it.

I repeat: unfounded and malicious accusations of cheating against specific individuals or entire groups of people, without supportign evidence, deserve to be taken down.

Those posts can be taken down individually. The posters can be warned. A friendly MNHQ message can be posted on the thread.

BUT TO TAKE DOWN AN ENTIRE THREAD ON A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE??? THAT is silencing. THAT is collusion. THAT is pinning your colours to the mast.

What is the ACTUAL reason @MNHQ?

Silencing debate on this issue is collusion.

Nobody's silencing debate on the issue of men in women's competitions.
Start one if you wish. It's got nothing to do with parkrun though.

Cady - take down the posts then. Easy.

Just as racist posts or disablist posts or homophobic posts can be taken down without nuking the entire thread.

Easy.

Perhaps it was because the thread was about one particular person who isn't a public figure?

I thought the thread was useful though and the topic of unfair advantage in sport is an absolute fundamental issue within the push for self-ID.

person with physical advantages of male anatomy competes as woman in parkrun

women discuss why they, on the whole, find this is unfair, but, on the whole, agree parkrun should not have to take steps to do anything about this, it is more a matter of trust, honour and princple. whether or not the individual meant to cheat or not is almost irrelevant as the issue spoke of a wider problem.

it is the women, apparently, who are not "in the spirit" here. not the movement which suggests that gender identity is more important in every single conceivable situation than the biological reality of women.

Cady - taking down the thread, when other measures could have been taken, IS an attempt to silence debate.

Spot on Uterati. Cheating is synonymous with dishonesty and it's fundamentally dishonest for a man to compete in women's sports.

Lang - it was taken down due to accusations of cheating, not singling out an individual (who is anonymous and unnamed and even the poster who pitched up claiming to be that person wasn't that person according to the OP).

It's possibly also because if the recent spat between Parkrun and Runners World about whether the concept of cheating can apply to Parkrun at all, because it is a run not a race. The upshot in the running community was a consensus that it doesn't.

So threads to discuss cheating in athletics are probably better off centred on competitive sport, not an inclusive, not-for-profit, mass participation, non-competitive, community based event.

Auntie - hardly a reason to delete an entire thread though? Over a conceptual difference over the applicability of 'cheating' to different running events?

I agree with theuterati

posts referring to 'cheating' should have been removed and a warning given if necessary

So threads to discuss cheating in athletics are probably better off centred on competitive sport, not an inclusive, not-for-profit, mass participation, non-competitive, community based event.

This.

Quite depressing that an important discussion was removed.

And if you want to see changes to how Parkrun is run, I'll repeat my suggestion that you need to talk to your local Event Director and/or Run Directors, perhaps in co-ordination with your running club (if they support whatever changes you wish to propose)

Or email directly to the Head of Pariticpation

www.parkrun.org.uk/aboutus/

Wow.. MNHQ took down whole thread!
It is important to be able to discuss any aspect of women's lives however 'petty' some may think.

women discuss why they, on the whole, find this is unfair, but, on the whole, agree parkrun should not have to take steps to do anything about this, it is more a matter of trust, honour and princple. whether or not the individual meant to cheat or not is almost irrelevant as the issue spoke of a wider problem.

This.

Okay, well if we're so very wedded to the dictionary definitions of things, I'm afraid it isn't cheating. Collins dictionary link

Example 1: When someone cheats, they do not obey a set of rules which they should be obeying, for example in a game or exam.

Except transpeople do obey the rules placed upon them when participating. Explicitly. There are rules, they follow them, they compete.

Example 2: to deceive or practise deceit, esp for one's own gain; trick or swindle (someone); to obtain unfair advantage by trickery, as in a game of cards

Except transpeople don't practice deceit in order to gain an advantage. They may arguably have an advantage - you can argue that if you like - but they have this in virtue of their being trans, not in virtue of any trickery.

...unless you're saying being trans is a made up thing in people's minds which they say they are simply because they want to trick everyone into conferring onto them some advantage? And if that's what you're saying, well, I think we all know a word we might use for that.

Oh Come On!
The whole premise of the thread was that the OP, who was not in a race, spotted that the person who crossed the line 2 secs before her was a trans athlete.
NOT A RACE! NO ISSUE!
We have this amazing forum to really debate the issues and then it gets put at risk by those who are clearly transphobic. We are walking a fine line here and Justine is backing us. Deliberate misnaming of individuals (just rude) and frothing over whether someone else in a race was wearing a skirt is a waste of our energies and makes others less likely to engage with us.

Is that aimed at anyone in particular rat

Auntie Cady - still not a good enough reason to take down an entire thread.

And how is this supposed to work anyway? No threads allowed about Tesco, on the grounds that Tesco can be contacted directly by the OP in order to sort out the problem? No posts allowed about the NHS on the grounds that the OP can contact PALS and sort the problem out or get in touch with their MP? No threads allowed about schools, because OP can contact Governors and get it dealt with?

Just because there could possibly be an avenue of recourse open to the OP to get the issue addressed in real life does not mean that discussion about it here is invalid. If it does, then over half the contents of MN needs to be deleted.