Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

Or perhaps we could expect transwomen to show some sportsmanship AuntieStella

I'm not dismissing it as a fun run. I am saying it is a mass participation, non-competitive event with a distinct ethos of inclusivity. Other events - lots of them - are available to people who want the competition rules to apply.

Same. Exactly this.

Thanks a bunch MN for telling women to put up and shut up

Or perhaps we could expect transwomen to show some sportsmanship AuntieStella

This. It is a minor part of a much bigger problem. And sorry, but people will call it out.

Or perhaps we could expect transwomen to show some sportsmanship AuntieStella

Transitioned women are legally women though. This is a non competitive race, where everyone is included regardless of sex,age, ability.
Why should they put themselves as a man in something that is not a competitive race?
Someone said about putting assisted on the details instead. OK, there's a solution.
If you're going down that road, the biological women taking drugs that can affect performance need to declare assisted too.
Where does it stop?
It's a hard dilemma.

I do though recognise MNHQ work hard to keep most of the trans threads going in the face of a lot of pressure.

I agree

Transitioned women are legally women though.

Only those with a GRC. Which is a tiny proportion of males identifying as women.

CadyHeron I've always felt that the status quo is probably OK regarding GRC's. But although it was about a relatively trivial issue, that thread convinced me that the right thing to do is get rid of them altogether.

When the law accepts literal untruths fairness becomes impossible.

In the absence of a change in the law, the best we can hope for right now is that transwomen think carefully about the implications of their actions.

Cady I saw the last thread, and we do not know that the runner had "transitioned" or had a GRC. We don't know anything about their legal status. With the move to self ID from a lot of organisations, often anyone can declare themselves as what they like.

If park run is "just for fun" why do they produce these rankings, anyway?

On a wider scale (not in sport) just including transitioned people with their new sex is so problematic for all groups. Having a separate trans category on everything should be the norm, and people should be educated as to why it's important that they use this.

Why should they put themselves as a man in something that is not a competitive race?

So should they put themselves as a man in something that is a competitive race @Cady?

Parkrun is not a race

But to be fair, most actual ‘races’ are open to men and women of all ages and abilities. Some aren’t - but most are.

Parkrun publishes the results from each run and includes a number of categories including gender, therefore it is inevitable that people will compare themselves against their peers

*I am disappointed that HQ pilled the thread, I think that anyone born male should not be competing in women’s categories and i think we need to have these conversations!

The erasure of women in sport is just as insidious at grassroots level as it is in the professional arena, grassroots sport is important, it can help women make friendships, develop confidence, and keep fit and well physically and mentally, and I think allowing trans identified males to compete as a women undermines women’s sport as a whole.*

This in spades.

Placemats to read when I have time

I'm not sure they could have a category for 'N' or at least not without abolishing the%ages (as they could not be produced AFAIK, or does anyone know better?)

So if the results page is to be altered - what would the new one look like ideally?

The wider issue of the impact of self-id and women's distance running was raised with regards to the recent Boston Marathon.

Link here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3219506-Boston-Marathon-2nd-version
(the reason this is titled '2nd version' is that the first thread was removed)

There are men and there are women and they have well understood biological differences AuntieStella. The only change needed to the results page is to change the word 'gender' to 'sex'.

The other change required is for people to take full responsibility for the impact of their choices on others.

Accusations of "cheating" require dishonest intent. For that to be a fair accusation, you'd have to have reasonable grounds to believe that a non-trans man decided to compete as a woman (along with all the relevant legal and medical processes) just in order to further his sporting career. Is there any evidence that actually happens? Seems somewhat unlikely to me... especially at an inclusive amateur event with no prizes, no recognition, no publicity, etc.

In absence of evidence the default assumption has to be that cases like this are just trans people who happen to like sport... in which case there should be a balance between concerns. Clearly there should be an element of common sense... if Linford Christie decided to compete as a woman (but made no other changes to his life) that would be deeply suspect... but similarly treating all trans women as "men" would be hugely disrespectful and insensitive to one of our most vulnerable demographics (40% of trans people have attempted suicide and that number gets even higher when you look at those who are rejected by family or social groups).

Ultimately I question what the outcome you're asking for is here. An amateur event like Parkrun cannot possibly look into the legal or medical situation of competitors, they just don't have the resources for that. They'd be left asking run directors to exclude individuals based on subjective judgement on the spot, sending anyone who didn't 'look right' home. Regardless of whether the intent was transphobic, that would be a transphobic outcome not worthy of British tolerance.

Surely someone who says they are Y when they are actually X, who then takes a place reserved for Y is pretty much the definition of cheating?

I'm sorry MNHQ but in this case you made a bad call IMO.

What about the British sense of fair play richmarr?

Oh FFS!

If that was the 'reason' given, and it was going on for days, then remove those particular comments. The majority of comments were not even about that.

The silencing of women's dissent continues...

Or is fair play only for men?

I suppose a similar situation could be in secondary schools where teams etc are separated by sex but not always playing competitively.

The impact of girls and women being beaten by people who self ID as female but do not have female bodies should not be underestimated.

"Friendly compeition" is a thing, and also striving to get better against your peers.

It is difficult enough to retain engagement of girls with sports at secondary and past that, for a variety of reasons, some connected to our bodies (periods (swimming / martial arts outfits / pain etc), breasts (uncomfortable / embarassing / etc) and social reasons (girls not wanting to be seen red faced / sweaty / hair out of order etc).

This issue and the reasons are well known.

If further to that, girls are expected to play with and against people who they will never be as good as, then it's literally game over, isn't it?

"Clearly there should be an element of common sense... if Linford Christie decided to compete as a woman (but made no other changes to his life) that would be deeply suspect... "

Why would that be deeply suspect? What other changes has this person (from the deleted thread) made? Not many by the sounds of it.

You don't think Lauren Hubbard is enjoying medal status that they wouldn't have got as a male competitor? Think again.