Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

There is literally no repurcussion to allowing trans people to compete in Parkrun.

Yes, there is. Parkrun encourages participants to compare their performance against other people of the same sex and age group. This is so that they can assess themselves against average performance for their sex and age group and monitor their progress as they participate.

MTF trans participants will skew that data so that women aren't getting an accurate picture of how they compare to other women. And those participants who are competitive will feel the obvious unfairness.

We all know it's an honour system and the least an MTF trans participant could do would be to mark their time as assisted so that women are able to properly compare themselves against other women.

It's bad sporting behaviour. It's unfair and discouraging to competitive women. It gives a false picture of attainment level to all participating women. In the round, it's just not on. Some might see it as the typical entitled attitude not usually associated with women.

if women set up a park run just for women

It would actually be mixed, as transwomen would choose to include themselves.

Okay ReluctantCamper, so what evidence is there that girls will become disengaged?

Exclusing people is directly damaging, so if you want that to happen I'd expect a high quality argument, and ideally evidence.

What exposure are you suggesting girls will have to trans athletes, and at what age, and in what numbers? In what other field has a similar effect been observed that we can use as a benchmark for this consequence you're predicting?

Cady - you ask ‘why should Parkrun change?’Then suggest a change!Make your mind up!!!

Will say slowly.
I don't think it should change.
I think it's doing fine just as it is.
Which is including everyone. Regardless of age, sex, ability.
Just meant some clearly are not happy with what it's about and want it to be competitive.
So was giving a solution. Doesn't mean I want that solution.

Seeing as the thread got pulled minutes after your comment on the other thread, it's not surprising you don't really understand.
I understand a lot more than you seem to do.

What on earth do you think was so bad about what I said? You said that trans identified males are women, I said that they aren't. It's my personal view. Its not "transphobia". It's been expressed many many times by many many people. All the posts in the thread were about that very subject.

What exactly do you think self ID means?

"I'd argue that they are both the same concept, just on different scales. We all know the vast majority of people enter Boston just to finish, with no plan or hope of winning it, yet it is a race Does that make it ok to be annoyed at the same happening?"

Yes, my bold added because it's an entirely different event, held under competition rules

They aren't in a skirt or male up every day

Well thats an unfortunate typo

We all know it's an honour system and the least an MTF trans participant could do would be to mark their time as assisted so that women are able to properly compare themselves against other women.

It's bad sporting behaviour. It's unfair and discouraging to competitive women. It gives a false picture of attainment level to all participating women. In the round, it's just not on. Some might see it as the typical entitled attitude not usually associated with women.

Agree 100%.

What on earth do you think was so bad about what I said? You said that trans identified males are women, I said that they aren't. It's my personal view. Its not "transphobia".What exactly do you think self ID means?

Well, that's an edited version, for sure.There was a bit more to what you said than that - but I'm not daft enough to repeat otherwise comments will start getting deleted/or the thread and then people will say they're being shut down again.

Another one here saying MNHQ got it wrong on this occasion.

Well, that's an edited version, for sure.There was a bit more to what you said than that

No there wasn't. It's not transphobic to say that male people are male/men. It's not transphobic to say that decent people play by the rules of fair play.

You know the conversation we were having about how specific commenters are being targeted and HQ doesn't really understand what's happening? Excellent example here.

No exclusion richmarr. Transwomen should obviously be free to compete as males.

No there wasn't. It's not transphobic to say that male people are male/men.

I never said it was.
You seem unable to grasp that there's a difference between self ID'ing as a woman and actually fully transitioned to females though.

But CadyHeron these days how do you tell? According to the Labour Party anyone who says they're a woman is one. That seems to be the default rule now

Either it’s entirely for fun, relaxed and non competitive, or it’s an event where times are recorded for each sex class...

Can’t have both, IMO. I think the PPs who mentioned the role of events like Parkrun as a gateway to competitive sport are making a really good point.

This board is beginning to look like Swiss cheese with all the deletions. Didn’t see the more recent comments on the parkrun thread that may have lead to the deletion so can’t really say whether it was justified. I just hope some discretion is being applied, as as mentioned upthread, it was a specific anecdote about gender ideology directly impacting a woman’s sporting result and her feelings about that. That’s valuable, except now it’s been deleted.

Men will always win? Didn't she come 5th, so were all 4 runners in front her trans? Doubt it.
It's a fun event, not a competition, I don't see the big deal (in the scenario discussed, competitive sport is another discussion).

"richmarr Mon 30-Apr-18 15:02:00
Okay ReluctantCamper, so what evidence is there that girls will become disengaged?"

Isn't it obvious that girls, who are already disengaged from sports, will become more so if they are to share facilities with self id girls and compete with / against them at sports or in school games etc?

The idea that we need to have a study to show this otherwise how can we possibly know is silly.

We are human beings, and we know that if people are set up to fail then they do not enjoy the thing, whatever it is. We know that girls are opting out of sport, and we know the reasons. Add in, a prospect of always being shit (when compared to the cohort of girls who weirdly always come first) and obviously there will be an impact.

This is the point though? In general women and girls are not supposed to be competiitve, especially not ruthlessly so as required at higher levels, and if they really must do sport they must do it while looking sexually appealing. Generally, societies say that sports are really a man thing. Only in the last few years have we been gettign more exposure, more sponsorship etc. Lots of poeple don't like this. And so, here is the solution. Put sport back where it belongs.

The idea that we need to have a study to show this otherwise how can we possibly know is silly.

The level of disingenuousness of this debate just serves to show how little people care about women and girls.

Well, that's an edited version, for sure.There was a bit more to what you said than that

I think thats very poor form

If you cant back it up (and I appreciate that its very unfortunate that the thread was deleted ) then i dont think you should be saying it

The willingness to handwave away concerns about competitiveness and fairness that surrounds this debate indicates a complete contempt for women's sport. If it was seen the same way men's sport is nobody would be arguing the need to define clear boundaries and make sure fair competition is possible.

SardineReturns

richmarr won't accept that. Wait for the ridiculing, minimising and criticisms of feminism/equality/insert something about women here to arrive next.