The Angels Forum

[Nextloorejext]

This trans forum has a long thread on Mumsnet. Seems they are actively lobbying companies to pull out advertising on Mn on the grounds of Mn allowing/supporting/encouraging hate and transphobia. After having a quck look, the Angels site seems to spout it’s on views on “terfs” which sound pretty hateful, possibly even misogynistic. I know both sides if the debate can go over the top and get pretty nasty - but, am i wrong to find many pisters there completely hypocritical in targetting Mn for the kind of comments and rhetoric similar to which they are accusing Mn of, not only accusing but trying to damage the site with haranguing the sites advertisers to pull out.

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

I think it's really good to make people we don't agree with welcome (within reason), even if they are doing it for all the wrong reasons.

It gives us something to talk about (this matters: we need reasons to keep talking even though many of us have said it all a million times already)

It allows us to demonstrate our arguments and to take theirs to bits without turning off the undecided

It's good for our reputation wrt the 'echo chamber' accusation

I have such total confidence in our reasonableness and in the brilliant women on this forum that I am certain that anybody stirring trouble will do more harm to their own cause than ours.

[LangCleg]

I think it's really good to make people we don't agree with welcome (within reason), even if they are doing it for all the wrong reasons.

Yes. I agree. But disagreement wasn't the issue here, was it? It was something else altogether.

[MoltenLasagne]

I'm fully on board with welcoming people with dissenting viewpoints - I'm not going to engage with the extensive me-railing that we've seen from certain posters.

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

disagreement wasn't the issue here, was it?

I'm including attitudes that need calling out under 'things we don't agree with'

E.g., (an indirect example in order to play balls not people) if we spot a sealion or whatever and instantly go 'right you're a sealion I'm not engaging with you' people less accustomed to sealioning tactics get the impression that we won't engage with reasonable questions, this is an echo chamber etc etc. If we sit there engaging politely (pointlessly) away, lurkers start delurking to say 'hold on, this person isn't in good faith and also now I understand the radfem position much better'. We've all seen this over and over. But it takes patience and courtesy to have that effect otherwise we lose the lurkers along with the sealion.

Of course I'm not saying everyone should always do this, who can be arsed. But it's good to do sometimes and good to maintain an atmosphere where it can be done.

[LangCleg]

(Trying so hard to be impersonal!)

But disagreement wasn't the issue. Sea lioning wasn't the issue. Trolling wasn't the issue. I think most of us are fairly well-aligned on all of this stuff.

The issue was deception and manipulation by a community member who had gained the trust of other community members and then abused it.

These are not similar things.

Avoiding what happened here in the future isn't a matter of forum etiquette. It's a matter of feminist consciousness raising. Apples and oranges.

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

Yes yes but I'm talking about consciousness raising! Reaching the widest possible audience. That's the reason I care about 'forum etiquette'

[Havoc]

"If we sit there engaging politely (pointlessly)..."

I agree this is one way to show we are willing to engage, but there is a danger that the thread fillsup/dies and the topic of the thread stops being discussed. This is a chat forum, so I don't expect theads to stay on point, but is important to keep in mind that derailing is a silencing tactic.

Mumsnet is seen as an echo chamber because it's women taking, and often not centring men. Nothing we can do will change that. Unless we encourage more men to join and we talk about whatever they want to talk about.

[SophoclesTheFox]

100% agree on the knowing manipulation of female socialisation being an absolute red line on a feminist board. You're spot on, sweary and lang - it is a common dynamic and I've been sucked in myself. I've never had the concern I've shown reciprocated. It's water off a duck's back, when women share our stories - it doesn't register.

I've seen it done here by a number of different trans posters (little acid test for you: if you've the self awareness to wonder "is it me?", then it almost certainly wasnt!)

I'm all for debate, and welcome it. There are people who I won't see eye to eye with, but I want them to have their say. I would actually rather that the ridiculous MRA & TRA threads stayed right where they were rather than being deleted, so we can all see what's been going on.

[AngryAttackKittens]

Like our young friend who works in finance the other day who wanted to talk about...I don't think he was sure himself, honestly, it just definitely wasn't tea.

[SophoclesTheFox]

I think he's a recurring theme here, kittens - he bobs up every few months wanting to shout at feminists about why only 9% of women are feminists. He has a few sub themes about female violence, conscription and Erin Pizzey's dog that he'll throb on about, then he gets deleted and peace reigns.

He's like malaria or a stubborn fungal infections- we'll have a relapse soon

[AngryAttackKittens]

MRAs - like herpes, but the process of acquiring them is less fun.

[MadBadDaddy]

"Men are scared women will laugh at them, women are scared men will kill them" - (thanks Margaret, but you forgot to add that Trans people get the crappy end of both deals). Fear of ridicule is still fear. Could a feminist respect a fear that seems (to her) to merit laughter?

[Ardant]

@MadBadDaddy ... eh?

[PencilsInSpace]

Wow Sweary

[Anlaf]

I forgot about Erin Pizzey's dog!

Cor - that were when I used to lurk here, and up again and fucking agin would pop another poster banging on about that terrible woman

I can't even remember the details - and i googled it at some length.

[Anlaf]

anyway - to sweary

of course i googled the fucking Erin pizzey's dog thing again

[LangCleg]

"Men are scared women will laugh at them, women are scared men will kill them" - (thanks Margaret, but you forgot to add that Trans people get the crappy end of both deals). Fear of ridicule is still fear. Could a feminist respect a fear that seems (to her) to merit laughter?

Quod
Erat
Demonstrandum

[LangCleg]

100% agree on the knowing manipulation of female socialisation being an absolute red line on a feminist board. You're spot on, sweary and lang - it is a common dynamic and I've been sucked in myself. I've never had the concern I've shown reciprocated. It's water off a duck's back, when women share our stories - it doesn't register.

Exactly. And this is why it isn't anything to do with educating lurkers. It's to do with educating ourselves so that we support each other and don't get sucked in.

[SwearyGodPervert]

Lang

[AngryAttackKittens]

Like I said on another thread, I'm terrified of spiders. People are free to laugh at me when I act like the daddylonglegs on the wall is going to kill me (DH certainly does).

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

Men laugh at us and kill us. We don't waste our energy worrying about the laughter.

[Ereshkigal]

I've never had the concern I've shown reciprocated. It's water off a duck's back, when women share our stories - it doesn't register.

That's exactly it.

[MadBadDaddy]

I'm responding to one or two comments that were along the lines of "I'm fully on board with welcoming people with dissenting viewpoints " by offering a dissenting viewpoint that may (or may not) be held be the people you're thinking of being welcoming to.

Accepting the facts of basic science still doesn't stop you being Trans. Accepting that none of it makes any sense doesn't help either.

Having it pointed out all the time, though, is SO annoying. Is there another reason to come here?

[Ardant]

I really don't understand what you're trying to say, I'm not being sarcastic.

[thebewilderness]

That is one of the tells of a narcissist, the bit where they do not reciprocate the way people who empathize with others do. Sociopaths on the other hand do faux empathy surprisingly well, though they have tells also.