The Angels Forum

[Nextloorejext]

This trans forum has a long thread on Mumsnet. Seems they are actively lobbying companies to pull out advertising on Mn on the grounds of Mn allowing/supporting/encouraging hate and transphobia. After having a quck look, the Angels site seems to spout it’s on views on “terfs” which sound pretty hateful, possibly even misogynistic. I know both sides if the debate can go over the top and get pretty nasty - but, am i wrong to find many pisters there completely hypocritical in targetting Mn for the kind of comments and rhetoric similar to which they are accusing Mn of, not only accusing but trying to damage the site with haranguing the sites advertisers to pull out.

What's funny is that so many people don't seem to realize that that socialized tendency to soothe ruffled male feathers, punish the woman who ruffled them, and restore harmony by preventing any further ruffling is a huge part of how TRAs were able to create the situation we're dealing with now.

Yes yes yes.

Reluctant it’s not about everyone agreeing and making it an echo chamber, it’s about staying (mostly) on topic.

I don’t want to single out JC as others do it, but I had a thread about why TIMs show such hatred for us, which was during my 15 minutes after the ManFriday swim when I’d had another TIM selectively quote me and ridicule my experience of male violence. JC was fairly kind, and when there was an audience told a long, sad, totally irrelevant tale of how their boyfriend had denied all knowledge of them being a TIM when they were cruelly outed. This was nothing to do with what we were talking about, and had no relevance to any part of the conversation. It was about getting attention and being feted.

If they’d disagreed, and used examples of their lives then it would have been appropriate. They didn’t, they wanted fawning and attention. And I fell for it. And was paid back by being talked about as “the Mumsnet feminist” on Angels.

Debate and conversation is great. Plopping and centring yourself isn’t. Which, due to female socialisation is what I feel I’ve done on this thread

Nope Sweary I was baffled until you explained

I don't think anyone needs to feel bad or do any mea culpas - whether because they've been a bit blunt and ruffled feathers, or because they fell for a bit of the old narc manipulation.

Not the end of the world. We learn. We help each other. We move onwards and upwards with more awareness and understanding.

I think they call it feminist consciousness raising!

SwearyGodPervert, I took that post as a dig at me when I said few men treat TIM as women. I thought it was JC way of saying 'thats not true, men treat us bad too'

Often, when TIM come on to Mumsnet all they do is show how very different our experiences are. Its harder than they think for women to relate to their experiences and them to ours.

Not the first or last time I'll say this: every day's a school day on MN

Not the first or last time I'll say this: every day's a school day on MN

YY

I don't think anyone needs to feel bad or do any mea culpas

Also YY

Often, when TIM come on to Mumsnet all they do is show how very different our experiences are. Its harder than they think for women to relate to their experiences and them to ours

And this too.

I shall add nothing, just quote what has come before

Well, it appears the women along with me who supported JC have been given a real bloody nose. JC Is back on angels.

JC has been a transwoman a lot longer than she's been posting on mumsnet. I don't expect her to cut herself off from online support, just play with a straight bat.

I think the thing which makes me so angry is that the TIMs seem to often be rather ordinary, even dull men (thinking of the many who are in the mainstream media - don't know any "ordinary" ones IRL.) They are not models, or TV presenters with any fame; they don't get Vogue front covers or long articles written about them in papers. They are just men.

Then they decide to become women. They don't think that much of women - they see women as being beneath men in some kind of hypothetical misogynistic pecking order. So, as former men, they see themselves as at the top of the pile of "women."

And the media validates that. And women are socialised to validated that too. We unconsciously give them room; offer them space to chat; apologise when their fragile egos are bruised by something.

In a world where people were recognised on merit it would be SwearyGodPervert or Magdalene Burns who was making a documentary on being a woman; not a TIM. But, transwomen are seen as sort of "super" women - the best kind of woman because they are men.

As you were....

Still reading this thread but reached this:
This isn't about calling out any individual commenter for not realizing that JayCee had form for acting very unpleasantly towards some women here. It's about the pattern, and the fact that it keeps happening. It doesn't happen with say TruScum or Pigeon because they don't expect to be centered in that way.

I honestly didn't realise this had happened. I still don't know - only what I'm reading here.

Well, it appears the women along with me who supported JC have been given a real bloody nose.

Does it matter? This isn't really about JC, you know? It's about raising consciousness among ourselves so that we can recognise patterns of behaviour and be aware of the ways in which our female socialisation kicks in to make it easy to manipulate us.

Look at it this way and you'll realise that a forum member behaving badly here has actually done you a favour in helping you along the path of feminist awareness.

Seriously - don't beat yourself up. Don't feel bad. Don't check for updates elsewhere. You've got a great place to talk here and many supportive women around you. All is well!

I highly recommend laziness to combat this - when someone posts a wall of text about their personal experience which is completely unrelated or purposefully derailing to the conversation I just cba to read it.

I'm not sure how I missed Sweary's post I must not have read the thread properly for which I apologise. I'm not happy if that is true and Sweary was targeted like that. The fact is that above all things I centre women in my politics and support them against things like that. So I'm sorry that happened Sweary and er, I'll read the whole thread better in future.

I thought it was obvious this person was using certain threads as mememe validation/'special laydee treatment' material and to thereby shut down discussion around the trans topics.

Its a pattern that repeats itself over time and over different message boards and different TI non-women. I did wonder if JC was Kim who used to post here because it was the same MO. I think once you recognise the pattern it becomes obvious and enraging/sickening depending on your mood at the time.

Hear hear lang

molton works for me usually as well

Rosenberg there was at least one another poster from angels who posted on here a few years ago, using the same name here and there, but I can't remember who or when exactly. They were older though in their 70s, claimed that they passed (a doctor even gave them a pregnancy test) and their posts were very long.

I think Kim is a different poster who still posts.

But what do I know, I don't claim to be miss Marple.

kim is a different poster

She was very helpful in answering a personal question i had

I have seen her under one name change but not another

If she choses not to post on the trans topics then i don't this she is particularly recognisable

Unlike xenia

I'd given JC sympathy, and then when I realised what had happened offered Sweary an apology, which she very kindly waved away as not the point of the exercise. I am a bit cross with myself for being misled and also for falling into female socialisation, but also a bit happy that my basic default is to engage with everyone on MN, whether they are a woman or not, in good faith. (Which I also recognise is all well and good when it's only me who is affected, but is a bit of a different case when it affects others, as here.)

I also think it's OK for us to massively disagree on all kinds of things, and I don't ever think we should fall into the TRA-cult behaviour of deciding for each other who is an appropriate friend or not.

At the Bloomsbury Place meeting, there was quite vehement disagreement on several points, and while some of it was quite awkward in the moment (eg the chair apologising to Debbie, Miranda et al for something that had been said, and other women being cross at the apology being given at all), when I thought about it afterwards I thought, actually, that's better than some sort of unity rally. We desperately need different viewpoints - from women, not from men coming and telling us what to do and how to do it - in order to work our way to the best possible outcome. There was so much solidarity and joy at that meeting, but there was a lot of differences, too, and I think that was a good thing.

The day we all agree is the day we've been taken over by aliens

Or angels

I've read through and it's a mea culpa from me. I understand it's not the point of the exercise, however doesn't sit right with me not to acknowledge the situation. Learning all the time.