The Angels Forum

[Nextloorejext]

This trans forum has a long thread on Mumsnet. Seems they are actively lobbying companies to pull out advertising on Mn on the grounds of Mn allowing/supporting/encouraging hate and transphobia. After having a quck look, the Angels site seems to spout it’s on views on “terfs” which sound pretty hateful, possibly even misogynistic. I know both sides if the debate can go over the top and get pretty nasty - but, am i wrong to find many pisters there completely hypocritical in targetting Mn for the kind of comments and rhetoric similar to which they are accusing Mn of, not only accusing but trying to damage the site with haranguing the sites advertisers to pull out.

[Jayceedove]

That's okay, I appreciate all the good thoughts. I need to take some time to get my head and heart together and recharge.

The extent of the anger at the extremes on both sides here has shocked me. This kind of thing is not something I am good at doing. I am not political or an advocate for anything. But I do see the important crossroads we are at and care about that.

I will be watching the debate continue.

[Caldonia]

I have found your posts thought provoking Jaycee, and you have definitely informed my understanding of the debate. Hope that you stick with us.

[Jayceedove]

No problem. I am not back posting, so don't worry. You are rid of me.

[ReluctantCamper]

take a break, come back and keep talking Jayceedove. Talking to each other is the only way we're going to sort this hot mess out.

[ReluctantCamper]

and may I say I also enjoy thebewilderness's work too.



I feel a bit baffled about what's gone on here

[Greymisty]

Jayceedove it must seem very scary to not feel 100% TRA or GC and to read extremes then to be bullied by people who are claiming to be bullying for the good of a movement. Just writing that out sounds stressy. For what its worth, which is not a lot, I think there is plenty of middle ground and majority of people are in it.

[spontaneousgiventime]

IIRC what you admitted to was talking there about what was said here. That's not true. JC posted on here she was then faced with a thread full of abuse and bullying on Angels. She read the posts and came back on here to explain she had upset some on Angels and why. She just wanted to make it clear the info she had posted was her own experience and other trans people may be different. She hasn't done anything wrong.

[Rufustheconstantreindeer]

Same here reluctant

I love when thebewilderness posts the rules...its my favourite bit

[SwearyGodPervert]

Jaycee has been playing both sides for months. Jaycee wrote some supportive stuff to me here after I was savaged by a MRA on the radio and then royally took the piss out of me on Angels with all her friends over there. I wasn’t talking about trans stuff - I was talking about male violence so a subject that really needs the piss ripping out of it

As for what Jaycee is doing now, they’re having a narc tantrum. They’ve been caught out and are trying to be the victim- “I can’t do anything right”style. It’s so textbook it’s almost painful.

[thebewilderness]

spontaneousgiventime
You can look it up yourself.

[spontaneousgiventime]

thebewilderness Where is it? I accept I might have missed something, I don't read all the threads, I'm going by the 'Trans Un peak thread.

[Rufustheconstantreindeer]

been playing both sides for months.

Well if thats the case they've been busted now by the sounds of things

Still...lessons learnt and all that

What happened to you sounds really unpleasant sweary

[Rufustheconstantreindeer]

Leaving the thread myself now

Goodnight all

[DebbieInBirmingham]

Like @JayceeDove, I'm a member of both Angels and MN, though I've not posted in Angels for some months. My arguments do upset some people in there and that's not my aim or my intention.

Sadly social media compartmentalises into what can be little more than echo chambers. Thats not great but it is so difficult to stop.

The reports on the altercation at Speakers Corner are a case in point. The accounts in trans groups bear no comparison to those I hear in gender critical groups. It's like they are reporting on completely different events.

[spontaneousgiventime]

All I'm going to say is, I have been posting with Sweary for quite some time and am gutted she has been hurt. I'm outta here, the Angels forum is poison and it's tainting MN.

[LangCleg]

royally took the piss out of me on Angels with all her friends over there

I saw this when it was first pointed out on here. It wasn't nice.

I would have more sympathy for people who say they are caught in the middle if they didn't do this sort of nasty thing and also if they didn't react to any challenge with multiple threats to leave but never actually leave. That's a behaviour most women recognise - and not in a good way.

[ArcheryAnnie]

I did not know that, Sweary, and that is not OK. I am really sorry, and I posted out of turn above, too.

[LaSqrrl]

The accounts in trans groups bear no comparison to those I hear in gender critical groups. It's like they are reporting on completely different events.

Because one side uses classic DARVO.
Clue: It is not the radical feminists. If you believe that 60-something women are violent antagonists, there is little hope of you ever seeing the truth.

[SwearyGodPervert]

Please don’t worry about me. I’ve become a lot more resilient since ManFriday blew up.

I hold MN forums in very high regard, I’ve said before that they kept me alive when my mental health was very bad (and it’s not an exaggeration). I’m buggered if anyone or any groups of people try to take it down and the TRA actions at the moment are a direct attack on this space and all the wonderful women in it. That’s not to say we can’t have opposing views (I’ve been ripped to shreds on AIBU, sometimes rightly and sometimes not) but people seeming to befriend on here in order to undermine us elsewhere? Nope, not having that.

Feminism chat needs to be kept going. If we have underhand behaviour, particularly around this subject, some people won’t feel comfortable here. We cannot let women be bullied out of this space.

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

Sweary.

The main thing that struck me from the discussions on Angels was the absolute cluelessness about the levels and chronicity of male sexual violence and intimidation that women are subject to. They don't experience it so don't really believe (or think it matters, maybe) that we do.

Having said that, I stand by my earlier posts - we don't need to be defensive or to engage with unnecessary drama. Our arguments are strong and if we remain reasonable in the ways that we put them, despite all provocation, then there are no grounds for shutting us down.

[thebewilderness]

We cannot let women be bullied out of this space. I know you are right but I really do not think the mods have the women's back on FWR.
Sweary, I am so sorry they did that to you. I have been seething over the narcissistic feed being provided in spite of what they did.

[Waddlelikeapenguin]

swearyG i clearly missed something

I love when thebewilderness posts the rules...its my favourite bit
mine too (& the can you codify belief)

[sapphireflower]

I think it's good that people read both forums, and go even further understanding each other above and beyond their personal schema.

From what I've read, seen and heard there's buckets of paranoia on both sides, with each side chanting simplistic tropes among themselves like:

"Trans women are women!"
and
"Segregate people by biological sex because men are threats!"

And the diatribe continues from there. Each inventing their own versions of shock and horror, their own ideologies. Both to me are like religions. I'll be courteous as not to cause offence, but I'm actually an atheist, and I don't belong anywhere.

When will it end? I don't know, it has been going on for longer than I've been alive. But I'm worried always that things will escalate, and I worry about people loosing their link to humanity by getting carried away with their ideologies / schemas. As a pacifist, I've read a bit about genocide and the various ways it happens even in the UK - like the way people with disabilities or who can't work were marginalised and dehumanised by the press.

Anyway, sorry for the heavy content. In the end I hope that compassion and empathy will win.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

""Trans women are women!"
and
"Segregate people by biological sex because men are threats!""

Only one of those phrases is chanted as a simple trope that any discussion of is forbidden. No one chants the second phrase, and it's a misrepresentation of the many arguments for why there is a need in some circumstances for sex segregation.

But I'm probably just paranoid and carried away with ideology.

[sapphireflower]

"no-one chants the second one" - remember the Roderick thread?

I was wondering what you thought about compassion and empathy being something that could move things forward?