Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

The Angels Forum

217 replies

Nextloorejext · 23/04/2018 19:17

This trans forum has a long thread on Mumsnet. Seems they are actively lobbying companies to pull out advertising on Mn on the grounds of Mn allowing/supporting/encouraging hate and transphobia. After having a quck look, the Angels site seems to spout it’s on views on “terfs” which sound pretty hateful, possibly even misogynistic. I know both sides if the debate can go over the top and get pretty nasty - but, am i wrong to find many pisters there completely hypocritical in targetting Mn for the kind of comments and rhetoric similar to which they are accusing Mn of, not only accusing but trying to damage the site with haranguing the sites advertisers to pull out.

OP posts:
SwearyGodPervert · 24/04/2018 10:59

Yep Angry - being admonished for being mean when you point out the derail is infuriating

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 24/04/2018 11:03

I like being told that someone is derailing

I have usually spotted it but thought i was just being mean so its nice to get validation

I certainly wouldnt tell another poster off for giving the thread readers a bit of a heads up

Or at least i hope I haven't

AngryAttackKittens · 24/04/2018 11:04

What's funny is that so many people don't seem to realize that that socialized tendency to soothe ruffled male feathers, punish the woman who ruffled them, and restore harmony by preventing any further ruffling is a huge part of how TRAs were able to create the situation we're dealing with now.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 24/04/2018 11:07

Yup Sad

ReluctantCamper · 24/04/2018 11:08

a bunch of other women come in and tut at you for having the temerity to point out what is very obviously happening

I get this. But I spent a long time on the thread I started in chat when we got muted defending this board, saying we're not interested in being an echo chamber. If you've got valid points to make come and make them. So if I see signs that we want to chase away people with conflicting opinions that worries the hell out of me.

The point of the exercise isn't to be right, it's to protect the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls. And that means bringing as many people with us as we can.

But I also know that I'm still feeling my way here.

AngryAttackKittens · 24/04/2018 11:11

How can we protect women and girls if we repeat the pattern where the moment a male enters the room everything re-centers around him and his needs/feelings?

spontaneousgiventime · 24/04/2018 11:15

I stuck up for JC because I had no idea she had done what she did to Sweary. I stuck up for her because I saw her being bullied on Angels and it was horrible. I made a mistake. I spoke to Sweary in private last night and apologised to her personally. I owed her that once I saw what had happened.

Can we please stop the blame game? I feel guilty enough over something I just didn't see, I can't help that. Yes, I was warned but I didn't see the attack on Sweary, so had no idea JC had been behind anything nasty. I acted on what I saw and Sweary herself accepted that. Thank you Sweary for understanding we are fallible human beings, but we can learn through making mistakes.

ReluctantCamper · 24/04/2018 11:17

Yep, and one of the things I love about the whole of mumsnet is the way men's posts tend to be cordially ignored unless they've said something bloody stupid.

But if you're talking about transsexuals and a transsexual turns up to talk, it's right to give them some attention. Not centre them certainly. But take what they say into account. It's fine to discount it if it's BS, but that shouldn't be automatic.

Original poster
Nextloorejext · 24/04/2018 11:19

And I’ve not even had one bunch of 💐 on my 15 yrs or whatever being on this site.

OP posts:
ReluctantCamper · 24/04/2018 11:21

Flowers Nextloorejext

AngryAttackKittens · 24/04/2018 11:27

What about when every conversation they participate in ends up centering them? What about when that's in large part because of the ways they're using women's socialization against us?

This isn't about calling out any individual commenter for not realizing that JayCee had form for acting very unpleasantly towards some women here. It's about the pattern, and the fact that it keeps happening. It doesn't happen with say TruScum or Pigeon because they don't expect to be centered in that way.

What I'm getting at is that with the trans people who come in and make themselves the center of the conversation, thus derailing discussion about impacts on women and girls, it's not an accident that those conversations go that way. Others don't have to agree with to those who notice and point it out, but sometimes the disapproval of our doing so has been palpable.

spontaneousgiventime · 24/04/2018 11:34

AngryAttackKittens When I read JC's posts I took them as her explaining her life as a very early transitioner. I took the me, me, me tone in her posts as explaining all of this. I suppose I thought that she couldn't put across what it was like to be an early trans person without being a bit me, me. Was I wrong? Possibly - probably with hindsight. There again hindsight is a wonderful thing and I would have sailed through life if I had had it.

I have now realised what JC was all about but continuing to make me feel bad isn't helping as I feel guilty enough as it is even though I didn't realise JC had been horrible.

Datun · 24/04/2018 11:34

Others don't have to agree with to those who notice and point it out, but sometimes the disapproval of our doing so has been palpable.

That's because socialisation is so heavily ingrained.

It literally feels wrong and mean. Even examining and analysing your own motives sometimes doesn't help.

It's only when you see the same process repeated, that it starts to make sense.

And, of course, the other huge reveal is when you don't do it, and the person who's been expecting it goes off alarming.

That does tend to make the socialisation goggles fall off instantly.

ReluctantCamper · 24/04/2018 11:37

And on this thread Sweary turned up and explained what was going on and changed people's minds.

AngryAttackKittens · 24/04/2018 11:38

Earlier, sapphireflower said...

I was wondering what you thought about compassion and empathy being something that could move things forward?

And before that, summed up the Spartacus thread as "separate by biological sex because all men are threats", in a mocking way that clearly implies that women's feeling that men are a threat to us is ridiculous extremism.

So, sapphire, how compassionate and empathic do you think that comment that you made was? Is it your belief that comments like that, which frame women's concerns that way, reflect your stated commitment to "hearing what people have to say and being listened to and valuing what they say"?

AngryAttackKittens · 24/04/2018 11:40

This conversation isn't about you, spontaneous, it's bigger than that. I'm not sure how to explain that any more clearly.

LangCleg · 24/04/2018 11:40

The point of the exercise isn't to be right, it's to protect the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls. And that means bringing as many people with us as we can.

There are TS people on here who do not manipulate and use our female socialisation against us. I welcome their voices.

There are also people on here - hello Crisp! hello Rat! hello Supermatch! - with whom I fundamentally disagree. We have robust exchanges of views and we are sometimes snarky and rude in that robustness. Nobody flounces off crying meanie meanie to try to stifle that disagreement.

These are both great things for a wide range of viewpoints leading to healthy debate.

That is not what has happened here. I object to being used for narcissistic supply and am certain it is not a dynamic that leads to healthy debate. I assert the importance of women naming this dynamic when we see it.

I know this conversation makes a lot of women uncomfortable but I think it's an important conversation to have.

spontaneousgiventime · 24/04/2018 11:41

ReluctantCamper For me, yes. I didn't know Sweary has been a victim of JC, hence why I apologised to her. I had stuck up for JC because I believed she had been a victim, I apologised to Sweary once I realised she had. I didn't know she had until she said on this thread. I would NEVER had stuck up for JC had I known earlier about Sweary.

Original poster
Nextloorejext · 24/04/2018 11:42

Daaaammn you to HELL Reluctant! Now I can’t feel hard done by anymore. 😢

OP posts:
spontaneousgiventime · 24/04/2018 11:42

AngryAttackKittens No, it's not about me, but I was part of the group of women who supported JC. I feel I have to explain why I did and I will.

LangCleg · 24/04/2018 11:46

continuing to make me feel bad isn't helping as I feel guilty enough as it is

Don't feel bad! Just notice the dynamic and, if you agree with the analysis, watch out for it going forward! All is good!

(I have twice tried to point out this dynamic and been modded for it. Hence my very careful and impersonal language in posts on this thread. It's hard not to sound a bit snippy about it though! I've seen Sweary point out what had happened on at least one other thread too.)

AngryAttackKittens · 24/04/2018 11:47

It's partly a conversation about narcissists, and how to deal with them. Especially when they're male and know how to use women's socialization to extract maximum narcissistic supply and obedience. There's overlap with the trans issue because narcissists are overrepresented in that community, statistically speaking. And also overlap with female socialization and how it impacts how women respond to manipulative behavior from men.

Not all trans people are narcissists, and the ones who're not we can discuss things with in the same way you'd discuss issues with any other person.

spontaneousgiventime · 24/04/2018 11:48

LangCleg Thank you. Yes, like I said last night we live and learn. I certainly am. I wish I had seen Sweary's posts but until last night I genuinely didn't know.

ReluctantCamper · 24/04/2018 11:59

Great post at 11:40 LangCleg, really sums things up for me.

I have somehow managed to reach the age of 41 as a feminist in name only. I'm still figuring out how all this works.

Ereshkigal · 24/04/2018 12:23

I object to being used for narcissistic supply and am certain it is not a dynamic that leads to healthy debate. I assert the importance of women naming this dynamic when we see it.

Absolutely agree.