The Angels Forum

[Nextloorejext]

This trans forum has a long thread on Mumsnet. Seems they are actively lobbying companies to pull out advertising on Mn on the grounds of Mn allowing/supporting/encouraging hate and transphobia. After having a quck look, the Angels site seems to spout it’s on views on “terfs” which sound pretty hateful, possibly even misogynistic. I know both sides if the debate can go over the top and get pretty nasty - but, am i wrong to find many pisters there completely hypocritical in targetting Mn for the kind of comments and rhetoric similar to which they are accusing Mn of, not only accusing but trying to damage the site with haranguing the sites advertisers to pull out.

[thebewilderness]

Waddlelikeapenguin

You are very kind. I am concerned about how the non believers will be punished.

Sex segregated spaces were instituted so that women could participate in the public sphere. The first public toilet for women in London was burned to the ground by men.

So the problem with your comparison of extreme positions is that one is true and the other is not. Unless of course you want to argue that male violence is a non issue.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

No, I have no idea about the "Roderick" thread.

Do you really expect me to say that compassion and empathy aren't necessary? No, you're just chiding me.

[sapphireflower]

Well it existed, and you'll find plenty of threads saying the same things. I was asking you about it because I was interested in your perspective, I'm not scolding anyone!

[AssassinatedBeauty]

I'm sure it does exist if you say so. I have no idea what it was about at all.

Regarding you other point, I'll say again that do you really expect anyone to say that compassion and empathy aren't necessary?

[TotallyLibrarianPoo]

Ok, I'll bite, what's the Roderick thread? Please do a clicky-link. I read these boards every day, and haven't seen the Roderick one yet. I'd love to check it out.

[sapphireflower]

My expectation wasn't that someone would say that they weren't necessary, it was more along the lines enquiry - how would this help? or could this help? How compassion and empathy would help both sides, hearing what people have to say and being listened to and valuing what they say.

It's so difficult with disagreements, I try so hard to bring people together and bring harmony but I've found that some people just aren't tuned in at all.

I was wondering if you had any ideas or experiences that might help?

[sapphireflower]

Lol not Roderick, I meant sparticus! I think I had that monty python sketch in my head when I read it, I have no idea why, I'm not a great fan of it.

[thebewilderness]

The idea that we should be able to reach some sort of compromise with people who want to strip women of their rights is just bizarre. No amount of empathy and sympathy is going to convince women to set themselves on fire to keep trans warm.

[Ereshkigal]

The idea that we should be able to reach some sort of compromise with people who want to strip women of their rights is just bizarre.

Yes, it is. What sort of compromise were you thinking, sapphire? And given that most TRAs appear to have no compassion or empathy for women at all, where do you expect it to come from?

[Ereshkigal]

And the Spartacus chant is not "separate by biological sex because all men are threats". It's "men are not women". Which is true, and yet we're not supposed to think it. Because "transwomen are women" which everyone in the world knows is a big fat lie

[ReluctantCamper]

Ah. as usual I go to bed and all becomes clear. Sweary.

[ReluctantCamper]

and yes, of these two statements:

• transwomen are women
  
• humans cannot change sex (which was my Spartacus comment)
  

only one is demonstrably untrue.

when you hitch your wagon to a lie, your ideology is in trouble.

[Nextloorejext]

Roderick? How the hell did you get form Spartacus to Roderick - impressive.

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

The difference between 'transwomen are women' and 'sex-segregated spaces are necessary because men are threats' is that the second claim is theoretically coherent and robustly evidence-based.

[TruScum]

SwearyGodPervert

I must say that Angels is a forum I’ve avoided for a long time. I found it a very toxic environment.

Jay I’m disappointed, having only read your posts on here I thought you were sound.

Now you it’s sounds like you’ve been a victim playing narc.

[Havoc]

The idea that we all just have to listen to each other, be compassionate and find a compromise, sound wonderful. But in reality, what would that look like, which group of people will be making the compromise?

Adult males who don't want to be seen as men have needs and wants, but that doesn't override the needs of women to be able to name themselves and the issues they face. Adult human males do pose threats to women and girls, therefore female people need spaces away from male people, not only for safety but to talk about our lived experiences.

[SwearyGodPervert]

sapphire you're being patronising to the wrong "side". The TRAs are the ones trying to change everything - women's spaces, women's sport, the very definition of woman. They are the ones who need to come up with sound reasons and evidence as to why this will be beneficial to all. Their mindless, nonsense TWAW chant doesn't come under that and they appear to have nothing else.

When I first got involved in this I would have been happy with a compromise and finding a peaceful solution that disadvantaged the fewest people. Now, however, with the only acceptable solution for the TRAs being total capitulation I've chosen this hill to die on.

We show time and time again why we need the separation we have. We shouldn't even have to do that - we should be able to say it's ours and you can't have it #nodebate. We are met with threats and violence (proving why we need women's spaces). How on earth can you suggest we are in danger of losing humanity and make references to genocide? How dare you!

Like the TGLWGH plopping, in telling us to see both sides (when we can, clearly) and telling us to find our humanity you're relying on our female socialisation to "be nice" and you're trying to manipulate us to back down.

The thing is, the rights we are expected to back down on aren't ours to give away. They're our daughters, our nieces, our granddaughters and our goddaughters. We only have custody of them on their behalf and we have to keep them safe for them.

[Tanith]

I don't like this!

I've been popping onto the Angels forum for the other perspective for some time, although I've never joined because I felt it was their space and I didn't want to intrude.

There are some hot-heads, but there are also some calm, reasonable posters. I see they've sensibly closed down the Mumsnet thread now.

I think Jaycee was doing a very difficult balancing act between the two. She's right: the communication needs to be there, however hard some try to disrupt it. I'd be very sad if Jaycee were to feel she can't post either here or there. I hope she's OK.

[LangCleg]

Well if thats the case they've been busted now by the sounds of things

This is at least the fourth busting that I've witnessed here. Difficult to address because an accurate description defies talk guidelines and disappears into the ether.

[LangCleg]

What SwearyGodPervert said. I assert the right to name manipulative appeals to female socialisation when I see them. This tactic is not appropriate on a feminist board. I regard it as goady.

[AngryAttackKittens]

If you don't think men are a threat to women, sapphire, then you are a. incorrect and b. not listening to women. If you acknowledge that men are a threat but think we don't need sex segregated spaces then I have to ask, does the cognitive dissonance lead to migraines?

[smithsinarazz]

Jaycee- so very sorry that someone so thoughtful and brave should get such a lot of flak. Xx

[ArcheryAnnie]

sapphireflower one of the differences is that I have changed my mind as a result of some of these discussions on MN. And I still disagree with some posters on some things, and that's OK.

It's the difference between a cult which demands total obedience (and enforces even which friends you are allowed to associate with) and a discussion and debate - even a sometimes very heated discussion and debate - which moves the whole issue forward, and which tries to find solutions.

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

I don't want to derail but actually this is doing my head in. Women and girls in this country are being murdered in our hundreds and raped in our thousands every year, by men. We're sexually harassed and threatened at work and when we go out and on the street, by men. We're subject to coercion and abuse in our own homes, by men. Violent and degrading pornography and glamorised mainstream depictions of sexual violence visited on us by men are everywhere, training men to think that we are not really human and that hurting us is OK.

Where does this idea come from that we are being unreasonable when we worry about losing sex-segregated spaces, that we have no real skin in this game? Listen to what we are saying. Listen

[ReluctantCamper]

Amen TallulahWaitingInTheRain