Why are 'trans' males out of bounds for feminists?

[HopScotchy]

Feminists are very clear that we discuss feminist issues in terms of sex 'classes' not individuals. We are clear that when we discuss 'men' and the problems women experience we mean "not all men". Why are we not allowed to talk about the problems women face from trans males (transwomen) "not all transwomen"? Why is it 'transphobic' 'hate' to point out that transwomen are part of this male class and do indeed despite their 'identity' conform to 'male' patterns which harm women to the same degree as other males? Why should we treat these males differently when it comes to women's spaces? What is the reason? Where is the evidence?

Yes particularly I'd like to see the evidence that trans identified males are less violent or likely to commit sexual crime than other males. Then we can have an informed conversation about risk.

Yes particularly I'd like to see the evidence that trans identified males are less violent or likely to commit sexual crime than other males

Maybe because transwomen are different in socialisation, upbringing and personality to your average male - especially those who undertake HRT and surgery.

So that is going to have an effect on their behaviour.

Why is it 'transphobic' 'hate' to point out that transwomen are part of this male class and do indeed despite their 'identity' conform to 'male' patterns which harm women to the same degree as other males

What do you think shapes male behaviour?

Is it upbringing? Socialisation? Or just by virtue of male genes?

Not for the first time, I think you're using a different definition of "transwoman" to me. The definition I'm using is the Stonewall one.

I think this every time someone says something like "a tiny, vocal minority" or "most oldfashioned transsexuals are this whereas TRAs are that" or "no-one is saying the risk from REAL transgender people is higher..."

I think - well, we just don't know, do we? Risk can be higher, lower or the same as other groups, but unless we record and measure this objectively we'll never find out.

All we can say is that a body of evidence is slowly building about risk of TiMs and their rates of criminality compared to other males, but that the data is extraordinarily difficult to get to because of the obfuscation that occurs when recording 'gender identity' instead of sex. And that we hardly EVER hear anything about TiFs from which to build a picture. But that the difference in criminality between TiFs and TiMs is huge.

Maybe because transwomen are different in socialisation, upbringing

Also how does this apply to late transitioners?

I think it also depends on your definition of transwoman. If we're all under the stonewall umbrella then that is an incredibly wide definition and will include a whole lot of people don't have different socialisation, upbringing and personality to your average male.

Which is not to say that I don't have a feeling that what you say may well be true regarding more 'tradtional' transwomen, that is people who have transitioned to ease gender dysphoria yetanothertranswoman.

Do they? What's your evidence of that? And just as importantly what is your definition of 'trans'? From where I'm sitting transwomen are socialised male, the majority do not have 'dysphoria' in the sense homosexual transsexuals do, and the majority keep their penises and are heterosexual (sexually attracted to women exclusively/AGP). Why should these males be excluded from bars on males from female spaces?

transwomen are different in socialisation, upbringing and personality to your average male
What evidence do you have for this?

I agree, yetanother. Length of transition and earliness of transition are both likely to be factors.

Plus, of course, age brings wisdom and to some degree older social attitudes, such as not being raised in a social media generation where you can say what you want under a pseudonym and be like or hated for it all over the world in seconds.

Try that in your living room when I was growing up and you would have got a smack and learnt not to do it again without at least caring what yours words might do to others.

I think you're using a different definition of "transwoman" to me. The definition I'm using is the Stonewall one

The OP is talking about trans males, then transwomen and then trans identified males.

Given all the conversation today - it's very hard to know exactly who and what definitions people are talking about.

All the same thing. Can you differentiate for me?

I would say it's very clear from this short conversation alone that the stonewall definition of a transwoman serves people who I've seen refer to themselves as trans-sexuals very poorly.

All the male people who now have access to women's spaces under the Equality Act. That works for me as a definition in practical terms. I don't see the point in counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

What evidence do you have for this

Also how does this apply to late transitioners

Have you ever wondered what it's like growing up, feeling different, not knowing it and how that affects you growing up and even in your 20s and 30s?

Because there's one thing talking about being socialised as a male and there there's the reality of all the shit about growing up feeling different and how that affects you when you grow up and start a career.

I can only speak for me but being trans and feeling different really has fucked up all my life until I transitioned.

Transgender is such a wide definition of a word these days it is meaningless because even those of us who ARE trans have little idea what it includes or if there is any more common ground between them than saying all fish are fish.

Apart from those that are sharks who will gladly eat the little uns.

This is one reason yetanother and I - and quite a few others independently out there - have started reclaiming the word transsexual, which others want banned.

That has a very clear definition.

But I guess it's easier for people just to assume that transwoman all grow up with this male behaviour and that being trans has no effect on all on someone as they grow up - with internalised hate, lack of confidence, being bullied for being different, having the shit kicked out of them for being different but not knowing why.

Male socialisation is a wonderful thing

But the category "transgender" is clearly what counts in the matter of access to women's spaces.

Maybe because transwomen are different in socialisation, upbringing and personality to your average male - especially those who undertake HRT and surgery.

There may be some truth to that with those that transitioned young and have lived legally as women for decades.

I'm not convinced about those that transition late in life following successful careers and often have a wife and kids. I don't think surgery or hormones make much of a dint in their male centric POV.

Then there is the self ID crowd who have a myriad of reasons for being trans, none of which seem to be identifying with women.

Self ID is what it says on the tin. If transsexuals are willing to be identified as a group with the rest that's up to you. I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole if I was transsexual.

yetanother.

Yes I think a lot of us have. I have. I have artwork made by a friend which is shocking now when I look at it and see what it revealed of the artist. I look at other artists and see some incredible stuff. This makes me think that the insistence on erasure of the past is a waste of talent and experience, I know there is prurience but there are intelligent eyes. Even Caitlyn still admires Bruce.

I can only speak for me but being trans and feeling different really has fucked up all my life until I transitioned.

I sympathise, it must have been very difficult. But many late transitioners have lived a male life, fathered deferral children, sometimes been in the Army or male dominated workplaces. Can you really say they haven't received a male socialisation?

Several children

I don't understand what it means to be trans in the sense of 'identifying' as a woman any more than most of you do.

For me transsexuals have a medical condition that may or may not originate physically but feels as if it does. And that creates a clear mismatch between body and mind.

So you go to science and medicine and try to find out what part has gone wrong and if it can be fixed.

And, if so advised, do all you can to modify the body to match the mind physically as doing it the other way round has not been successful.

So, whilst accepting reality that you do not literally 'change sex', you adapt and alter your physical characteristics as far as possible to match the two and live in harmony.

It is all about achieving balance and to be able to live peacefully as yourself causing as little to fuss to others as you can.

That is my experience of being transsexual and seems like others I have talked to.

But it seems somewhat at odds with a few of those on the campaign trail in the wider trans umbrella.

But it seems somewhat at odds with a few of those on the campaign trail in the wider trans umbrella.

Yes.