Why are 'trans' males out of bounds for feminists?

[HopScotchy]

Feminists are very clear that we discuss feminist issues in terms of sex 'classes' not individuals. We are clear that when we discuss 'men' and the problems women experience we mean "not all men". Why are we not allowed to talk about the problems women face from trans males (transwomen) "not all transwomen"? Why is it 'transphobic' 'hate' to point out that transwomen are part of this male class and do indeed despite their 'identity' conform to 'male' patterns which harm women to the same degree as other males? Why should we treat these males differently when it comes to women's spaces? What is the reason? Where is the evidence?

The change is the emphasis on identity which in some quarters seems quite tribal vs the old skool fitting in under the radar.

That's my interpretation, some aspects of current gender politics remind me a bit of the punk movement.

I don't think there is a needs based analysis performed before a thread starts. Its spontaneous thing. Should we submit all proposals for threads to you to be evaluated in advance lass?

I wouldn’t be happy participating in (say) a Marxist discussion where things were said about my “class” without speaking up and saying “I’m not like that”

Ditto when my religious relatives talk about atheists. They think and talk as if what they say applied to all non Christians.

Not sure how to answer the question about how transwomen treat women differently than men do.

I guess the fact that there have been around 5000 - 10,000 transsexual women living amongst women for the past 40/50 years but it was not really a discussed issue for most of that time is partly a factor.

Today it is. But is that because of rising numbers? Or because of a new breed of trans women who are more demanding? Or social media creating a cause and a concern about that cause?

Certainly I do not 'identify' with the very in your face trans activism out there now. It leaves me cold and not a little scared at times.

Also, because someone transitions by a certain age, or because of a certain diagnosis, does it mean that they treat women differently?

yetanothertranswoman We all want to fit in. No one chooses to stand out in society (or do they?) Is that the reason for the shift?

It still doesn't answer my curiousness as to why TRA have kicked up the storm they have and pitted women against trans people if living as a woman is what they want. Women and transwomen had a truce of sorts before this, now battle lines are firmly dug. What does it achieve?

Have you ever wondered what it's like growing up, feeling different, not knowing it and how that affects you growing up and even in your 20s and 30s?

Are you joking? Do you believe this feeling is specific to trans identifying people?

I don't need to wonder what that's like. The self obsession and lack of empathy required for you to assume that feelings of 'being different' are unique to you and so important that everyone else must rearrange reality for you is just - I don't have words actually. Do you think women don't have that depth of feeling?

But your response is a deflection. You said:
transwomen are different in socialisation, upbringing and personality to your average male

What evidence do you have for that other than your personal feelings of being different? I can go to any incel website and read about how each and every one of them were just never like other guys. I know what I see from male trans activists and it's the exact same personality and entitled socialisation that I see in every other demanding narcissistic misogynist male I've had the misfortune to know.

I believe my own eyes. Show me your evidence.

Look at India sympathising with men rather than women who've been murdered. Would anyone who has grown up empathising with the lot of women under the patriarchy react like this?

The thing about the evidence of misuse of the law is it's there, in the USA and Canada, of the malicious and insincere acts that take place.

Some of it is posted here, which causes polarity in the conversations. I see it because I have been interested in the no debate perspective but you do need to look.

The motivation is not to smear the genuine, but to understand the misuse, laws exist because a need to manage use, if everything was perfect no law would be needed.

No. Forget all of this 'real trans'. Where is the evidence trans 'real' or not are not the same threat to women as non trans are? Where? What difference does dysphoria or anything ID make? Any difference?

Being objective about it we can't know because as far as I know there are no studies about how transwomen (of any kind) relate to women.

Anecdotally I think most of us who have followed this area for a few years can see differences in attitude between transsexuals and the umbrella group that is transgender. With the caveat that there will be exceptions on both sides.

Certainly I do not 'identify' with the very in your face trans activism out there now. It leaves me cold and not a little scared at times.

That's the kind of trans activism that is most relevant to women at the moment. The transgender category is the point. The lack of homogeneity when we are constantly being told to STFU and that being scared of men is silly, weak and a bit mad like being scared of escalators, is the thing that needs to be highlighted.

Y
My point stands. There is no evidence to exclude trans males from the need to exclude males from women's spaces. No evidence. The evidence which exists says they are men in all relevent consideration of sex segregation. And stop telling women we are 'transphobic' for pointing this out.

Look at India sympathising with men rather than women who've been murdered.

Yes, poor old men, having a hard time, first with MeToo and then Karen and her one track mind.

torontosun.com/news/national/youngest-dangerous-offender-gets-dd-breast-implants

Trigger warning on that.

That trans identified male has had 'full surgery' and legal gender reassignment in their country. Are we expected to believe that they are different in personality to other abusive men?

We are all socialized into the same dominance and submission paradigm framed by our culture. The only difference is that females are conditioned to submit while males are conditioned to dominate.

Do you believe this feeling is specific to trans identifying people

The comment was in regard to late transitioners - and my reply was in response to that comment - and the fact that there are trans people who do transition late but still grow up with this massive feeling that something is wrong but not knowing what it is like.

And then finally realising what is wrong.

So that's what that comment was about - specifically in regard to late transitioning.

My point stands. There is no evidence to exclude trans males from the need to exclude males from women's spaces. No evidence.

YY. I have also tried to make this point before. But for some totally unknown reason it's women who are put on the back foot and forced to defend our position against accusations of bigotry, prejudice, meanness, and are guilt tripped into silence by accusations that by objecting to males in female spaces they are directly inciting male violence against trans identified males.

Grammar fail, but YKWIM

spontaneous, my guess about your question - and it is a guess and I have been flamed for saying it by trans people so no doubt will again is this.

Up to recently the ONLY people who were able to transition did so medically with full approval of medicine after extensive psychological profiling and with other options for what to do instead of such a radical change of life considered first.

Many others wanted to transition but for various reasons were not assisted. There was about a 90% drop out rate. So only 100 or so medically transitioned per year and 1000 others were deterred.

Some because they wavered or changed their minds. Some because they had no clear signs of dysphoria and it was thought they were really just gay. Some possibly had other problems either masking their gender confusion or caused by it and doctors did not think they were psychologically stable enough to change permanently.

Either way there was a weeding out process that meant only those for whom it was a necessity for survival day to day got through the net and the others bumbled on with life in whatever way they could.

There has to be at least some overlap between that group who did not get through the evaluation and those who now want access to the GRA by removing the gatekeeping that in the past seems to have been there to deter many of them.

Are all of these people trans? Or the same kind of trans? Medical transition is clearly only suited to a small percentage, but does that matter that many others want to legally change without that step?

These are the questions we are confronting.

But the differences are real, either in degree or basis of the dysphoria v lack of dysyphoria and other reason for wanting transition.

So if there are to be expected changes in how trans people behave or treat women has to be seen as a consequence of reasons for transition - which to me look to be the thing that is most changing right now.

Yeah. Well, more of us have woken up now. Thank you for holding the fort whilst women like me didn't notice. Once noticed never turned back. We can only keep growing.

I'm sorry to break this to you yetanother but in my experience late transitioners are the most misogynist and fetish ridden of all trans identified males.

Stefonknee was a late transitioner, for example. This is the group who often leaves a traumatised 'trans widow' and multiple children behind them.

I was chatting on Facebook with the welsh people protesting the last meeting in Cardiff. I was trying to highlight the situation of Lucy Masoud , the lesbian arab Muslim firefighter who is anticipating the next cross dresser arriving in her changing room. And yes there are cross dressers instigating policies that allow themselves to do jsut that with the backing of Stonewall, in the police, the city, in universities. This would put her out of a job. I used Eddie Izzard as an example. This group that were describing us as haters and transphobes told me I had got it all wrong, Eddie Izzard is a cross dresser they said, not transgender. He uses the male facilities. Oh so what about his report in Pink News with Eddie saying he is a transgender and does switch day to day, and uses female facilities when he feels like it. I was called a UKIP supporter! They just don't know about this stuff that is actually happening and yet are calling us bigots on the basis of no knowledge. aaargh.

Anecdotally, I find that men who have at least a little insight into themselves as male are more likely to have true empathy with me as a female, then men who hold the belief that they too are women in any way.
The latter group are wilfully blind to how they redact swathes of my life, in order to shoehorn us both into a false and sexist category from which I am desperately trying to escape.

The harmless transexual vs strident transtrender distinction is a false trope.
There are several fully (surgically) transitioned people I can think of in the public eye who are virulent misogynists and very, very male in behaviour and socialisation.

Of course, there are lovely transexuals too. But it seems to me that those who have the most empathy and understanding of what it is to be a woman also seem to reach the end of their journey by concluding that they are not, in fact, a woman, or a transwoman, or in any way willing to contribute to women's struggles with the appropriation of any female terms or rights at all.

The more I see and feel solidarity with those people, the more I hope they find their own unique word to dub themselves. The 'Hirja' of their own choosing, a word which they choose, and which bears no relation to the female sex or womanhood.

Someone posted something about #TSRainCrew on one of the threads yesterday. 'Genuine' transsexuals wanting out from under the 'trans umbrella'. Reaching out to feminists.

Hmm. 'Late'. Nope. 'New'. It's not a discovery it's acquired. We are not stupid.