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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are 'trans' males out of bounds for feminists?

230 replies

HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 21:41

Feminists are very clear that we discuss feminist issues in terms of sex 'classes' not individuals. We are clear that when we discuss 'men' and the problems women experience we mean "not all men". Why are we not allowed to talk about the problems women face from trans males (transwomen) "not all transwomen"? Why is it 'transphobic' 'hate' to point out that transwomen are part of this male class and do indeed despite their 'identity' conform to 'male' patterns which harm women to the same degree as other males? Why should we treat these males differently when it comes to women's spaces? What is the reason? Where is the evidence?

OP posts:
Havoc · 18/04/2018 00:28

Why are they an 'exception' when it comes to entering female spaces? Why?

Because we can't keep them out? So we pretend that we are ok with it, that they don't pose a risk? We have been socialised to not upset the demanding man?

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 18/04/2018 00:30

Well he can make it past a lot of woman. He is one of the top 50 women in Financial services.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 18/04/2018 00:33

All about Phil

Additionally, she has been integral in providing reverse mentoring to management board members of the firm and is co-lead of the LGBT & Ally program at Credit Suisse where she places much importance on intersectionality and how the voices of all types of women and our allies need to be heard to drive forward gender equality – our differences make us stronger and diversity should be celebrated, not tolerated.

RosenbergW · 18/04/2018 00:35

Because we can't keep them out?

This is truth, sad as it may be.
We can't keep them out.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 18/04/2018 00:37

This is where we are headed. Woman becomes "demeanor"

twitter.com/LogicalMarcus/status/986379811328274433

RosenbergW · 18/04/2018 00:38

I find it hard to believe there are the same number of people identifying themselves as female cross dressers as there are those identifying as male cross dressers.

(The credit suisse thing)

FloraFox · 18/04/2018 00:38

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

This is an academic study which looked at the entire transsexual population of Sweden over a 30 year period (old school “genuine” trans definition). It found that until 1989, males who underwent transition had increased crime rates compared with other males. Post 1989, they found that males who underwent transition had the same pattern of criminality as other males. They attributed the change to improvements in treatment around 1989.

It’s essential that we should see some evidence of the risks posed to women by TIMs. The data is there but there is no appetite to examine it. Look at the cries of transphobia when Fair Play for Women tried to establish the proportion of TIMs in prison who are sex offenders.

If the government ever moves forward with its consultation we should demand that this evidence is gathered

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 18/04/2018 00:43

Yes, its just normal get up and put your clothes on for work. And you know we manage not to run in the mens for a wee.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 18/04/2018 04:16

I know that this seems hardline to many people. But how can someone insist on the right to transgress women's boundaries (and it doesn't have to be all women, just some of us is enough) and then demand solidarity from us?

How can a man be a woman? It's biologically incongruent. A man can think he's a woman and can dress and act like a woman and they are free to do that. But when TIMs are applauded in public and given Women's awards and single sex exemption spaces on a plate by other men, that's male privilege at play not equality. It's males looking after males, at the considerable expense and safety of women, their liberty and free speech. It's abuse of sex when they wilfully ignore, dismiss and minimise women's concerns and voices.

That is not OK on any level. It's abuse.

Pratchet · 18/04/2018 06:47

I've had a look through the thread and didn't see this: excuse me if I'm duplicating.

Study of every transgender and transexual person in Sweden with five year follow up

I'm sure you all know this. It shows trans XY retain male pattern criminal propensity, while trans XX have increased crime propensity.

Pratchet · 18/04/2018 06:48

(Also interesting findings on suicide, i.e. It doesn't go down after transition)

TeamOrders · 18/04/2018 10:40

The Credit Suisse thing

bring your whole self to work

Including your sexual fetish. And when at work, all prissied up, feeling aroused, encroach on women's privacy. Go for it. And they will shut the fuck up. Because you are a man. A powerful man.

Fuck off is my answer. NO.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 18/04/2018 11:17

@TeamOrders

Including your sexual fetish. And when at work, all prissied up, feeling aroused, encroach on women's privacy. Go for it. And they will shut the fuck up. Because you are a man. A powerful man.

This!! When I see most TIMs in the workplace setting - all I see is a that - there should be a category of constructive dismissal.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 18/04/2018 11:37

Have you ever wondered what it's like growing up, feeling different, not knowing it and how that affects you growing up and even in your 20s and 30s?

Well, yes, yes I do - I think I only came to accept myself in my late 20s - and even then, it was resigned acceptance, rather than being pleased with who and what I am. I still have to stuff the anxious "you don't deserve to be here" thoughts into a box so I can function as an adult with things to be done etc.

I think that perhaps you're not realising how common these kinds of thoughts are - that actually, I think a large proportion of women feel like imposters, like they don't fit. I don't notice it as much in the men I'm friends with - but then perhaps they don't talk to me in the same way as other women do because I'm a woman.

TeamOrders · 18/04/2018 11:38

woman I objected in my workplace to the presence in the loos of a man with a very fancy female name, long hair and a pink rucksack, to no avail. He deliberately went in the biggest and busiest of several loos even though he worked in a different part of the building. He also used the women's changing/shower after cycling in. He's left now thankfully, gone to perve all over some other poor women somewhere. It's all bollocks. They can fuck off and I am prepared to die on this hill.

SirVixofVixHall · 18/04/2018 12:17

Really interesting thread. Thank you op.

Jayceedove · 18/04/2018 12:17

One of the problems with Mumsnet being such a popular site is that threads pop up every day that go over things that were discussed just days before in other long threads that presumably nobody on the new thread has read.

Over the past few weeks I have tried to reply to as many posts as I can but it is hard to keep up.

On topics such as the Swedish study above - which gets posted a lot on here I have noticed. But hardly ever that one of the authors subsequently discredited it and a later study contradicted it.

Part of the problem with these studies is that most transsexuals, post transition, are never followed up. I was not after about 1982. Nor were any of those I know who I met in the NHS programme in the 70s.

We have successfully transitioned and got our lives together and our dysphoria has gone. We did not seek help and often have moved so cannot be traced.

Surveys like these will always be based on small numbers, because very few people in the UK are transsexual, about 100 - 200 cases a year, that's it in the whole UK.

You would not think that would you? But that's why for the 60 years or so these cases have been handled by the NHS you have not really heard anything, because the treatment was carried out to let you get on with life and once done that was it. No campaign to alter definitions or demand access to anywhere.

So you have to ask yourself what has suddenly changed in the last 3 or 4 years? It is not the transsexuals who have changed it, because the carefully honed treatment protocols and ways to help formed over decades have always been, and are right now, available to them.

But to do that they have to accept reality, know the limitations of what can and cannot be done, be properly medically assessed and psychologically studied and other options explored with surgery and transition very much the last chance saloon.

Studies like the Swedish one emphasise the problems and under stress those with none because the former seek out help or are in trouble and visible and the latter simply disappear from view.

As for the T level discussion - there is only one successful way to get T levels down to normal female range. That is the surgery that transsexuals undergo.

Many transsexuals - most of whom do have surgery - have levels well within the normal range. Mine has not been above 2.5 at any point when tested.

The levels of surgery are dropping sharply for one main reason. Only transsexuals with dysphoria seek and need this to survive.

The many other people who in the past were not transitioned by the NHS because they did not have this medical condition, which is what it is, largely do not want to have it.

In many ways they actively want to stay physically male and just 'live as' women.

This is why there is such a huge push for Self ID. To gain legal acceptance without doing anything in return required now except sign a declaration.

In my experience there has to be more than that. Society needs a proper medical and psychological assessment and the need for legal gender change to be more specific than just a lifestyle choice.

When you have dysphoria it is far more than that. Transssexuals will hardly ever detransition because those who are this are almost always given a relatively normal life (success rates are some of the best levels in any surgical procedure I believe).

I know it is hard to grasp from the outside looking in and from your perspective appears as someone stealing rights. But the GRA was mostly brought in because of the human rights act legislation not because transsexuals went on the rampage demanding access.

If there had been you would have had this debate 20 - 30 years ago, not today.

What is changing now is that many people not covered by that act and who are excluded from legal transition by that act want in - which they can only do by sweeping aside all the built in safeguards that were rightly put there to protect both women and the transitioner from doing so unwisely, inappropriately and as a consequence of issues that can be treated differently.

This is not about those few thousand then or now well aware they have a medical problem and willing to be tested, experimented on, assessed and ultimately aided to find the best way to resolve their condition. Because we understand what is and is not true about reality. We have never sought to redefine any words.

This is about the hundreds of thousands of others who want to redefine being a woman as a matter of personal choice without any identified medical cause.

I think that would be wrong - for women, for the sake of transsexuals who seem perfectly fine with the process as it stands and, just as importantly, for the sake of these other gender fluid people themselves - some of whom will possibly transition and then regret it if it is made so easy that it becomes a social experiment and not a survival necessity.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 18/04/2018 12:26

@Jaycee

Thx for that explanation - your explanation makes sense to me and adds insight.

I know it is hard to grasp from the outside looking in and from your perspective appears as someone stealing rights. But the GRA was mostly brought in because of the human rights act legislation not because transsexuals went on the rampage demanding access.

  • I think it's more sinister than that - there's podcast I can find the link to and an article that explains the money trail behind Trans. There's a lot riding on it - Big Pharm plus the future markets. So it's actually continuing a long line, since post war, of corporates creating insecurity in individuals deliberately and consumerising their distress - for the corporate advantage. There's a series of BBC documentaries about the process.
SirVixofVixHall · 18/04/2018 12:28

That feeling of not fitting in is incredibly common. I have a super clever daughter who has never fitted in, because she has been out of kilter academically with her age group. Some girls in this situation will become anorexic, because the focus shifts onto the changing body being the cause of the discomfort, when really it is part of the human condition, particularly for sensitive people. Many women feel at odds with their bodies and the way social attitudes change towards them at puberty. Older women are often happier in their own skins, and yet we see our lovely young bodies as a problem.
I was a size six to eight with an e cup bust pre babies, I had a 23 inch waist and I am tall. Yet I felt too hideous in my own skin to wear a bikini on the beach. All through my teens and twenties I felt that my body wasn’t right. Wasn’t nice enough. My Celtic skin too white, my thighs not gappy enough. It is tragic. Women feel frustrated when we hear from men how transpeople suffer, because actually many, if not most, of us feel like that , we just don’t talk about it. This culture is terrible for women. The rise of porn, the rise of plastic surgery. The pressure on girls is huge.

TeamOrders · 18/04/2018 12:29

Jaycee what do you think of the report that Primark in Coventry have apparently asked for ID before allowing someone they perceived as male into the women's changing room? Do you think that's fair enough?

Pratchet · 18/04/2018 12:33

Jaycee that study has NOT been discredited and disowned by Djehne. Her subsequent interview said the least she possibly could to save her findings as well as her career: basically that a different study at a different time with different people MIGHT find something different. That is very misleading and disingenuous of you.

Pratchet · 18/04/2018 12:39

This is an example of good cop bad cop. TRA bullies forced Djehne into a corner - and the nice-facing 'reasonable' activist, detached from what they did, still takes advantage of it.

Ereshkigal · 18/04/2018 12:47

On topics such as the Swedish study above - which gets posted a lot on here I have noticed. But hardly ever that one of the authors subsequently discredited it and a later study contradicted it.

She discredited it in an interview when she was asked about it by a transactivist. @iwearpurple had some interesting things to say about it in this thread:

A trans resource thread
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3175252-A-trans-resource-thread

Which "later study" contradicted it? I'm assuming you mean the same one, as I don't know of any others that have looked at this.

Jayceedove · 18/04/2018 12:52

I can understand the concerns over pharmaceuticals. I looked after my mum for 14 years after she had a big stroke and so had to deal with various experimental drugs and the like and changes in medication driven by NHS costs based on drug company charges.

So I can see your argument about how pushing hormones to a far wider group has a financial incentive.

Though I am not even sure that many of the ones seeking recognition now would even want to go that far as take hormones. It is not going to be any part of the necessity.

If the law is changed you could simply declare that you intend to permanently live as a woman and carry on doing so without doing anything else at all.

So it could quite literally be someone doing it to make a political point by campaigning for election on an all women's shortlist, or a recently released sex offender that decides to redefine so they can further their sick lifestyle, or someone who thinks they are a mermaid and dresses as one, and so on,.

Of course, these will be exceptions and uncommon and the vast majority of people availing themselves of self ID will be sincere and just want to express themselves in a way they feel suits. But that might not mean hormones in plenty of cases and even less likely surgery than it is today.

It will in no way require a diagnosed and monitored medical condition to have been discovered. And it may well be that there IS a medical or psychiatric condition there which the person does not know they have and which will never be uncovered but the women they then get to freely interact with may end up discovering later.

Self ID, however, well intentioned is basically redefining the entire meaning of what a woman is.

I understand why many on here have a problem with the GRA defining transsexuals in that way given that transsexual women in most cases probably do not have female DNA.

The law is an accommodation that includes perfectly proper space access restrictions for that reason. It balances limited access under the law against the expectation of a fully diagnosed medical condition treated in such a way that it minimises the maleness of the person being recognised. Surgical transition was only not made mandatory because it was legally not possible but it was accepted as the rule not the exception.

Changing the GRA to remove all those safeguards and understandings turns a mutual accommodation into a free for all that clearly makes no sense.

It is prioritising self expression over medical reality and turning a good law into a bad law.

The only people it works for are all the ones unable or unwilling to submit to the more onerous requirements that exist right now.

Requirements put there as a necessary check and balance because being a woman is not a choice.

Women know that. Transsexual women know that. It seems the government might think differently.

FloraFox · 18/04/2018 12:53

JayceeDove

On topics such as the Swedish study above - which gets posted a lot on here I have noticed. But hardly ever that one of the authors subsequently discredited it and a later study contradicted it.

It is utterly false that an author subsequently discredited it. Please do post the study that later contradicted it as to patterns of criminality.

As to further studies, they should be followed up. We should have a review of the outcomes of the GRA as part of any consultation on whether it needs to be amended. This should include full follow up with anyone who has had a surgery, a GRC or has been treated as a member of the opposite sex for any statistical recording purpose, particularly criminality.

Studies like the Swedish one emphasise the problems and under stress those with none because the former seek out help or are in trouble and visible and the latter simply disappear from view.

This is also false. The study followed every person who had treatment in Sweden over a 30 year period.

I know it is hard to grasp from the outside looking in and from your perspective appears as someone stealing rights. But the GRA was mostly brought in because of the human rights act legislation not because transsexuals went on the rampage demanding access.

Women are on the inside looking at women's rights and the impact on women of treating the rights of trans identified males as women.