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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Why are 'trans' males out of bounds for feminists?

230 replies

HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 21:41

Feminists are very clear that we discuss feminist issues in terms of sex 'classes' not individuals. We are clear that when we discuss 'men' and the problems women experience we mean "not all men". Why are we not allowed to talk about the problems women face from trans males (transwomen) "not all transwomen"? Why is it 'transphobic' 'hate' to point out that transwomen are part of this male class and do indeed despite their 'identity' conform to 'male' patterns which harm women to the same degree as other males? Why should we treat these males differently when it comes to women's spaces? What is the reason? Where is the evidence?

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 23:18

Some of them are more genuine then others.

Jayceedove · 17/04/2018 23:19

Did not explain that very well.

I guess I mean that a transsexual is changing physically to become part of society and so chooses, as yetanother says, not to be in your face or to draw attention to ourselves.

Our reason to transition was to be part of and accepted within society and get on with life. To effectively be cured of dysphoria and live a normal life.

This seems far less obvious with many trans activists who deny there ever was an illness that needing curing and almost embrace being trans as an expressive occupation and want to celebrate almost a new gender of transness as loudly as they can.

Whether there are different or simple a generational transition I do not know.

But I feel as far apart as a transsexual from the professional trans person shouting it loud as you can possibly imagine.

Original poster
HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 23:20

Genuine what though? If they deny trans is dysphoria what is it?

OP posts:
Trousersdontmakemeaman · 17/04/2018 23:21

Even notcursed is getting fed up of it.

twitter.com/notCursedE/status/986004342233817088

Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 23:21

I mean genuine in their stated aims to collaborate with feminists and push transactivists back.

Original poster
HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 23:22

End of days.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 23:23

Transgender is as meaningless a term as non binary is.

LangCleg · 17/04/2018 23:23

Very good Twitter thread from the redoubtable Dyketagnan.

twitter.com/Dyketagnan/status/986361061761630208

Because if it’s all about you, you aren’t anyone’s ally.

spontaneousgiventime · 17/04/2018 23:24

JC, my understanding, limited as it is suggests there are trans people who have social dysphoria, genital dysphoria, body dysphoria and mix of those. Now I'm not for a second suggesting I understand this, I can't even begin too. If someone has dysphoria then surely hormones, surgery, clothes and passing are the mainstay of that to 'cure' dysphoria? So, with that being said why would a transwoman not want to go through the full process?

It is this that worries women, it means we have men with fully functioning penises in women's spaces. Women have been accused of calling children (boys) sex abusers/molesters due to this concern. We have been accused of calling all men rapists. My late husband was no rapist or sex pest as are many others but thousands are and they don't have it stamped on their heads.

This sea change of how trans people want to live, ie change gender with full access to women's spaces while keeping male genitalia is a nightmare of epic proportions for women. I will never understand why a man who wants to become a woman would keep his penis. I would have thought proving to women that transwoman mean us no harm would be the best thing, however, its gone the other way and women are terrified.

TeamOrders · 17/04/2018 23:24

I mean genuine in their stated aims to collaborate with feminists and push transactivists back

Maybe.

Original poster
HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 23:24

To what aim? On what basis? That some people have the wrong brain and science doesn't know it yet? Or that some men are distressed about their bodies and/or being seen as men for some psych reason?

OP posts:
SpringNowPlease2018 · 17/04/2018 23:24

OP if Ive understood you correctly, I agree

But I think you might get a different response here because MN introduced me to all this about two years ago, so the posters who were around with the stats etc may not be here now because it's been a long and bizarre battle

I think that men who transition, whatever that means, have a similar rate of violent offending to men

I think crimes committed by someone such as Lauren Jeska or Tara Hudson are listed as committed by women

spontaneousgiventime · 17/04/2018 23:26

JC Crossed post, sorry. I feel a bit mean putting all of this onto you and any other transwoman here but this is a question that frazzles my brain.

Original poster
HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 23:27

Yes. I'm new here (and still can't work out how to post/reply properly). Not new to this debate though.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 23:27

That Dyketagnan thread is excellent. Harsh but true.

Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 23:28

Maybe

As I say, I think some more than others.

RosenbergW · 17/04/2018 23:28

The harmless transexual vs strident transtrender distinction is a false trope.
Yes.

it seems to me that those who have the most empathy and understanding of what it is to be a woman also seem to reach the end of their journey by concluding that they are not, in fact, a woman, or a transwoman, or in any way willing to contribute to women's struggles with the appropriation of any female terms or rights at all.

Yes. That's what I need from any trans identifying male person who wants to have solidarity with women - the acknowledgment and understanding of the many differences between then and us that ultimately leads then to detransition or at least start re-identifying as male.

Solidarity with women means recognising that when men redefine women to include themselves that is harmful to women.

I know that this seems hardline to many people. But how can someone insist on the right to transgress women's boundaries (and it doesn't have to be all women, just some of us is enough) and then demand solidarity from us?

Jayceedove · 17/04/2018 23:29

spontaneous, as you will know from my posts on other threads I am equally out on a limb as you in trying to understand what I see all the time being presented as a transgender person in the media who seems at times like a caricature and to have no real interest in physical transition and spouts nonsense like ladies have a penis too.

This might not quite be men are from mars women are from venus stuff but for me these trans people are talking out of if not actually from Uranus.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 17/04/2018 23:30

Notcursed on Izzard

twitter.com/notCursedE/status/982083398398349317

I rest my case. We are all drawing the same line twud appear.

Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 23:32

Solidarity with women means recognising that when men redefine women to include themselves that is harmful to women.

This.

RosenbergW · 17/04/2018 23:33

That dyketagnan thread is spot on.

spontaneousgiventime · 17/04/2018 23:33

JC Thank you for your patience in trying to answer the unanswerable. Your post made me smile, I also happen to agree re Uranus.

TeamOrders · 17/04/2018 23:34

Solidarity with women means recognising that when men redefine women to include themselves that is harmful to women

Beautifully put. Yes.

Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 23:34

I rest my case. We are all drawing the same line twud appear.

To me, the Stonewall line is the one that counts, until things change politically. Thats the one that's driving policy.

HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 23:35

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