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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Why are 'trans' males out of bounds for feminists?

230 replies

HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 21:41

Feminists are very clear that we discuss feminist issues in terms of sex 'classes' not individuals. We are clear that when we discuss 'men' and the problems women experience we mean "not all men". Why are we not allowed to talk about the problems women face from trans males (transwomen) "not all transwomen"? Why is it 'transphobic' 'hate' to point out that transwomen are part of this male class and do indeed despite their 'identity' conform to 'male' patterns which harm women to the same degree as other males? Why should we treat these males differently when it comes to women's spaces? What is the reason? Where is the evidence?

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 17/04/2018 23:37

I know that this seems hardline to many people. But how can someone insist on the right to transgress women's boundaries (and it doesn't have to be all women, just some of us is enough) and then demand solidarity from us?

Thank you for stating this problem so clearly.

sapphireflower · 17/04/2018 23:38

Jayceedove, good to see someone like me on here who is just as worried about how things have turned out.

"This sea change of how trans people want to live, ie change gender with full access to women's spaces while keeping male genitalia is a nightmare of epic proportions for women" - this is my feeling about this too.

People were sympathetic because they understood that we (ts people) were coping with something quite serious with out MH, and surgery and hormones makes life a lot easier.

I'm all for sex segregation for the safety of women and girls, but as far as my biology goes I feel like I'm a bit in between so don't belong to either group and so don't appreciate being lumped in with people who are biologically male i.e. anyone with primary and secondary characteristics of a man.

I want statistics to cover TS people separately from biological males.

It's also worth repeating that my treatment doesn't make me a woman, it just made my life a lot easier away from male violence.

Original poster
HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 23:42

And you to all appearances meet the 'not all men' criteria. It's not about you. It's never about males who don't harm women. Transwomen don't get out of anything men don't get out of unless you can show why they should. Why should transwomen get the benefit of the doubt men don't get?

OP posts:
RosenbergW · 17/04/2018 23:43

Our reason to transition was to be part of and accepted within society and get on with life

If only women could have that, truly have that, hairy legs and all.

The problem with this nice sounding goal is that your need for acceptance is in direct conflict with our own need to define ourselves, as a set of people whk have never had the full opportunity to do that (what with being women living under patriarchy), and to - without any compulsion from men - set our own boundaries. That means no guilt trips, no intimidation, no expectation, no sad stories about feeling different throughout childhood.

If women gain the right to be ourselves unmodified by male demands, you can't expect that the acceptance you seek will be available.

I'm not sure I'm making much sense here. The point is that only one of us can get what we want.

Havoc · 17/04/2018 23:45

You are making perfect sense, RosenbergW.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 17/04/2018 23:47

I agree Erishigal. Stonewall must get with the reality here and stop abusing their remit.

They may wish to blur the line between gender, sex, orientation and kink but they do not have the public with them on this and they are bullshitting big time.

spontaneousgiventime · 17/04/2018 23:48

Agree Havoc It was eminently sensible and I fully agree. Transwoman should have rights, of course they should but they should not be womens rights.

Original poster
HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 23:51

Women have never asked for the 'right' to perform 'feminity'. We have never sought 'gender' as a right. Gender is not something women identify with. We fight it. We fight to escape gender.

OP posts:
Trousersdontmakemeaman · 17/04/2018 23:52

In fact what is happening is the desire to sanitise kink is behind all this shit. All of it, it's an abuse of sex, gender and orientation.

cromeyellow0 · 17/04/2018 23:52

There was a surprising finding recently that most trans-identified males taking hormones still have higher levels of testosterone than do women.

"Only a quarter of transgender women taking a regimen of spironolactone and estrogens were able to lower testosterone levels within the usual female physiologic range. Another quarter could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time, while one quarter was unable to achieve any significant suppression." [What about the missing quarter?]

www.bumc.bu.edu/busm/2018/02/20/medicine-alone-does-not-completely-suppress-testosterone-levels-among-transgender-women/

Testosterone doesn't seem to be associated with physically violence in males (though it does in females, which might explain why TIFs have higher crime rates than women?), but it is associated with social dominance.

Quite remarkable that 70 years after the use of cross-sex hormones so little is known about the basic physiology.

Original poster
HopScotchy · 17/04/2018 23:57

Read Testosterone rex. It's another myth to naturalise female oppression. A nonsense.

OP posts:
spontaneousgiventime · 18/04/2018 00:02

Trousersdontmakemeaman I did wonder if appropriating women would allow men to normalise 'kink'. I read on Twitter a little while ago a small (at the moment) group TRA want to normalise paedophilia. Is this fight against women the way to do that? Make all sexual/gender preferences normal so we don't see sex with children as abuse. This is chilling if true.

Original poster
HopScotchy · 18/04/2018 00:02

Exactly. And feminists support people in this situation. We didn't even quibble with pronouns or GRC because it wasn't attacking women's rights. Now it is. And transsexuals either find a way back or don't. I started this hoping to protect the past we were all content with, I know now that's impossible.

OP posts:
Trousersdontmakemeaman · 18/04/2018 00:04

Yes yes yes yes yes. This is what is happening.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 18/04/2018 00:06

All this round and round about the committed people is a bit like angels dancing on the head of a pin, they objective of stonewall is to get kink in as gender expression

Its happening already.

Check out Pip Bunce

mirandayardley.com/en/cross-dressing-all-the-way-to-the-top-where-all-the-transvestites-have-gone/

moofolk · 18/04/2018 00:12

There are many interesting posts above debating definitions (which clearly none of us know as they are both subjective and subject to change) but as I understand it OP was asking about still being able to analyse behaviour from biological males as a sex class. Not lived experience or feelings but large scale quantitive data on things like health, earnings and crime.

You are right that with self ID we lose the ability to do this. Many TRAa are arguing that to classify someone even legally based on birth sex is transphobic and I think we need a way to convincingly state the opposite. How can we know if TIMs have male offending patterns or (as many claim) not if we are unable to discuss and study this?

SpringNowPlease2018 · 18/04/2018 00:14

OP I'm agreeing with all your points
Including end of days except at this point frankly I don't mind seeing that!

You say you're not new to the debate
Have you put these questions to anyone in real life? Just wondering what kind of responses you've encountered.

I'm saddened by friends who just think "feelz" and that we must be trusting of all transwomen, but I think those who are keeping silent might be seeing the issues.

Original poster
HopScotchy · 18/04/2018 00:18

Yes, as well but really I want to know right now what evidence there is to exclude transwomen as a male threat in women's spaces. Most are sexually attracted to women not men, most have (and wish to keep) their penis. The evidence I know of says they are male as far as the crime stats go. Why are they an 'exception' when it comes to entering female spaces? Why?

OP posts:
Trousersdontmakemeaman · 18/04/2018 00:19

Read the attached seminal work in gas lighting and realise how baffled the human race has become. Deliberately.
outleadership.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Credit_Suisse_Transgender_Guide.pdf

Original poster
HopScotchy · 18/04/2018 00:20

Yes Springnow. No friends disagree. All are amazed and initially think I'm making stuff up.

OP posts:
SpringNowPlease2018 · 18/04/2018 00:23

OP "Yes, as well but really I want to know right now what evidence there is to exclude transwomen as a male threat in women's spaces"

You mean what evidence is there that says transwomen aren't a threat to women? Pretty sure the answer is....none at all.

RosenbergW · 18/04/2018 00:24

We can't know, Moofolk. If we can't ask the questions or collect the data then we can't know.

All we are left with is believing whatever these activists say. This is deliberate, of course it is. They are providing themselves with the perfect cover. But if we say that, we are proclaimed transphobic. There is no way but their way, if we accept their way at all.

The alternative is not to accept it. We can say no. But we have to expect that this will be met with intense narcissistic male rage. Because that is the group we are dealing with.

RosenbergW · 18/04/2018 00:27

I'm sorry trousers I can't make it past Phil intro. Those pictures.

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