Why are 'trans' males out of bounds for feminists?

[HopScotchy]

Feminists are very clear that we discuss feminist issues in terms of sex 'classes' not individuals. We are clear that when we discuss 'men' and the problems women experience we mean "not all men". Why are we not allowed to talk about the problems women face from trans males (transwomen) "not all transwomen"? Why is it 'transphobic' 'hate' to point out that transwomen are part of this male class and do indeed despite their 'identity' conform to 'male' patterns which harm women to the same degree as other males? Why should we treat these males differently when it comes to women's spaces? What is the reason? Where is the evidence?

Can you really say they haven't received a male socialisation

You never know what's going on inside someone's head and how they feel about themselves.

I am sure that some of them come across as "typically male" and some don't come across as that.

And some will of course be treated by society as male - but not every male is treated the same by other males.

I'm curious. Some Trans people (I suspect those with genuine dysphoria) just want to get hormones and surgery and live a quiet life in their chosen gender. These are the trans people who have freely moved amongst us with no more than an odd glance. Today we have 'trans' people who don't want surgery and don't want a quiet ordinary life, they want to be out there and in our faces. Yet when they lived quietly and just blended in, there was none of the issues there are today.

I get that there is a lot of fetish trans people now and also the 'trans fad' but surely things were better when all trans people just got on with life?

Rather a lot of them come across in their behaviour as "typically male" to me.

Doesn't matter. If trans don't want to differentiate from each other that's up to them. The law will be about the 'umberella' so again, why are these people off bounds for feminists talking about male violence? Is there evidence we should treat them like women in terms of threat to women? Evidence.

Yes that's the point. The law is indiscriminate. All trans identified people can claim the same protections.

I think how young you know that you are trans will have a degree of impact.

If you grow up as a boy, have girlfriends, get a job and career that way, get married, raise kids as a father and reach a degree of social security a lot of that HAS to be filtered through life as a man.

Inevitably it will bring socialisation that can never be eradicated.

The effects of hormone changes drop in degree of change pretty exponentially after puberty and have minimal effect on someone transitioning in their 50s onward.

Physically the male body can never be very successfully changed post about 25. Socially much the same will probably apply.

Plus given how powerful I know the dysphoria was from primary school onwards I cannot conceive of the psychological damage to mental health and behaviour that deferring transition until decades after that would do.

Not to mention the selfishness of dragging spouses and children into your mess and not as a priority resolve that first without involving others.

And I do wonder how deep can be the dysphoria or if it ever really exists if you can put it aside for 50 years.

I know I could never have done that.

We exclude males because 'males'. Until there is evidence trans are different what are we doing and why?

And some will of course be treated by society as male - but not every male is treated the same by other males.

The same could be argued for gay men. There was a lengthy and excellent post a couple of days back from an older lesbian who lived through the early gay rights movement and everything that followed. She spoke very eloquently about the disregard and misogyny from many gay men who should have been allies.

Just because someone hasn't been well treated by other men doesn't always mean they have empathy with women.

oh crikey, I don't see myself as typically female inside - who does? In my teenage years I was very sure I was doing it all wrong. but if you met me you would not see me as particularly different from many other middle aged women, both in appearance and behaviour.

So even though I'm an individual, socialised differently to everyone else, I'm still thoroughly socialised as a woman too.

I'm not interested for the purpose of this discussion how transwomen are treated by men. I want evidence that transwomen treat women differently (better) than men do. Where is it?

I would just like to point out that we treat male children and female children differently and that this different treatment begins in infancy. There's a large body of research about this, the "Baby X" experiment probably being the most famous.

Socialization begins long before children develop a sense of self or identity.

Yes. I remember finding a stray cat I thought was male and leaving him outside with food. I then realisec she was female and brought her in. I learned about my 'sexism' then. It runs so deep.

spontaneous the ones you refer to are transsexuals. Until recently unless you were one of these then you did not get any NHS help. You still today have to be diagnosed by doctors and psychiatrists now to get that far.

This is why there are so few - only 5000 - 6000 in the UK with a GRC.

Things were perfectly fine without any rights at all prior to the GRA in 2004. Most of my working life was in that period 1973 - 2004 when I had no legal status as a woman.

We got on with things as that was the point of transition.

The law was passed solely on the basis that it involved small numbers and medical assessment and most would physically transition.

It would not have passed so easily otherwise.

Hence the disquiet by many over the changes being considered - which will increase the numbers covered from 5000 to half a million - remove all medical assessment and hugely increase the numbers making no or minimal physical transition.

It is changing one act created for one purpose into an entirely different one.

I want evidence that transwomen treat women differently (better) than men do. Where is it?

I doubt there is anything that proves the negative, as it were: transwomen who do not attack women, who do not encroach on women's space, transwomen who do not talk over / down to women, transwomen who do not expect women to get on with the wifework etc etc. Just because that's not how data is recorded

Anyway back on track: What evidence is there trans males are different from other males as far as women are concerned? Why are trans males an exception?

Also much of how we are treated and socialised is by people who know us well, parents, siblings, doctors, teachers. Those people will know our sex and treat us accordingly.

I'm not interested for the purpose of this discussion how transwomen are treated by men. I want evidence that transwomen treat women differently (better) than men do.

Good question.

Which is why women are recording trans male crimes against women. Its 'transphobic' of course. Trans males are out of bounds.

Socialisation is weird though. I always found the older females in my family a bit scary and baffling when I was a kid as they wore that 60s Mary Quant thick make up and high backcombed hair and mini skirts. It looked seriously bizarre to me as a kid who had three brothers and I just could not imagine why anyone would do all that! I still stare at foundation wondering why anyone can be bothered with all that face painting. And yet I went to art college! Face art seemed like a waste of talent. Maybe it was the only female expression permitted at the time.

Sorry, perhaps trivial.

lunamoth, that is true, but trans children who know, as many do, from earliest memory, that they feel differently and why they do within primary school are likely to rebel against body sex socialisation.

That was my experience.

It does not entirely eradicate it, of course. I accept that. But no trans child aware of being trans that early will have a normal childhood gender upbringing.

I cannot say what it feels like for those who do not even become aware of any gender dysphoria until later in life - post puberty or even adulthood - as that was not my experience.

But it will likely make some difference as to degree of socialisation.

Yes. I remember finding a stray cat I thought was male and leaving him outside with food. I then realisec she was female and brought her in. I learned about my 'sexism' then. It runs so deep

What a horrible person you sound. What is the point of this thread? It isn't adding anything new. How many trans threads do you need?

JC, I understand all of that, what I don't understand is the earth moving shift from wanting to change gender to live as any other woman to the 'trans' of today who demand to be seen as women, nothing else will do.

I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong here) this is more about appropriating women's spaces than it is about living as a woman? I read Angels for a while and saw a huge part of a trans time was spent getting facial, deportment, clothing, makeup etc right to pass and fit in.

I look at the trans people now and it's all about stereotypes, mostly exaggerated. What do you, as an old school transsexual think has caused this cataclysmic change in the 'trans' community? Maybe I should clarify and say transwoman rather than people.

It is this that is causing my confusion. Before this wave of TRA transwoman just 'got on with it'.

I don't think you can really #NATALT on this one.

The transgender umbrella is the basis of the self-ID movement. That's what women and girls are being presented with. That a section of this umbrella population is less aggressively misogynistic than other sections is really neither here nor there in terms of the overall threat to women's rights, spaces and services.

I don't think even the nicest of TS people should be expecting women to consider the TS predicament before they consider their own.

Sorry.

I read Angels for a while and saw a huge part of a trans time was spent getting facial, deportment, clothing, makeup etc right to pass and fit in

I try to fit in as much as I can so I don't stand out. Not standing out makes life a lot easier.

Especially at the moment.

But I haven't got the time to spend a lot of time on that stuff - or the money.

I think there is an enormous difference between transwoman with gender dysphoria (who have struggled with the difference between their inner identity and their physical reality all their lives) and todays transactivists. The decision to undergo radical surgery and life long after care to make them who they are will not be something any of them will have chosen to do lightly. The struggle and unimaginable pain they have had to live with must be so difficult to face every day. They do not hate women.

The modern day transactivists (who have no intention, desire or need to transition as they do not have gender dysphoria) seem intent on causing nothing but hurt, division and pain to both those who do and woman. They seem to hate both transmen, transwomen and women.

No. Forget all of this 'real trans'. Where is the evidence trans 'real' or not are not the same threat to women as non trans are? Where? What difference does dysphoria or anything ID make? Any difference?