Boys in Guides is wrong - letter in Sunday Times today

[CapnHaddock]

Fabulous! Thanks to Agnes and DrNic: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/allowing-boys-to-be-guides-is-wrong-v0dngnvjp?shareToken=a17a43f649f1ebc0c60077f356240fd0

Also, as Havoc said, this is a feminist space and the focus is on women and girls. If transsexuals would like to collectively come up with a proposed solution to the question of how they are to fit into a sexed society than we may be willing to review that proposed solution and comment on it, but there is no guarantee that we will agree with the proposals, and we will not be making our own needs and concerns secondary to those of transsexuals.

Obviously it's part of who they are, but I notice how strongly non trans people are connected with their sex and how vehemently they defend this position, and anything that threatens this must be terrifying.

I see this point a lot coming from transgender people, particularly transwomen, that women/feminists are too rooted in our biological sex. What they don't (want to) understand is that we would also like to be free from our biological sex and the consequences it has. But we can't. Because forever society will judge us, threaten us, harm us and kill us because of our biological sex. So for us it shapes the world, yes, a lot like identity shapes the world for transgender people. However, we cannot makes choices about our biological sex, it is a fact. Identity, gender, is like personality, it changes.

So if we have rights based on our biological sex, rights that we fought very hard for, you cannot just come in and say the foundation of our rights, therefore our rights, are incorrect and need to change. Convince society first we all matter, regardless of our sex, then we can talk.

Also, I don't want to be dissociated from my body. I do not regard that as being a desirable mental state and it is not something that I hope to achieve or would want for other women.

This is 'feminist chat' it's not a place where women have to come up solutions for people who are not women and girls.

Well put. It is not my responsibility to validate someone else's identity or find solutions to their psychological problems.

Thank you angry.a.k

Trans people are aware of male people being a threat to our safety and aware that our societal oppression is based on our identity. It might be less for transmen, but it's still there.

Trans people are massively body conscious and are scrutinised, dissected and gazed/stared at by society whether they have clothes on or not. Privacy is something they take very seriously.

Our fears are practical ones too - because no space exists for non-binary people, for example, and services only serve people with non-trans identities.

Finding solutions means working together at them - I understand we have similar worries and fears about things. I hope we can move forward with this understanding.

What sanluca and AngryAttackKittens said. Not my circus; not my monkeys.

we have similar worries and fears about things

No. We don't have similar worries and fears about things. The above statement could not be more erroneous if someone thought it out with both hands.

"society will judge us, threaten us, harm us and kill us because of our biological sex"

Yes, this! And trans people too! I hear what you are saying and I'm on your side!

Recent article re sexual harassment of girls:
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/12/sexual-harassment-rife-in-schools-but-largely-unreported-study-says

sapphireflower I hear what you say, but I don't understand why women have to give up those spaces though? Women want and need spaces that are biologically segregated.

How do we not have similar worries and fears, TerfsUp?

Beamur, thank-you. I think there does have to be some sort of segregation, I want everyone to feel safe and included.

Is there an alternative that us guides who are totally happy with the current policy can sign? I would love to show my support for it.

Here's an idea, just putting it out there.

Why not segregate on the basis of those born with the reproductive equipment to impregnate, and those born with the reproductive equipment to be impregnated.

works for me.

Privacy is something they take very seriously.

In that case an excellent place to start would be with the acknowledgement that female people have an absolute right to maintain those spaces in which they will be likely to be undressed as female only, and that the "identity" of other people is entirely irrelevant in terms of our need to maintain those spaces.

Feel free to write your own Scabz - the more voices in the debate the better.

In terms of how trans people are to be accommodated - make some proposals and you will most likely get some feedback. You won't get an Official Mumsnet View, because there are millions on users on this site and there's no way we're ever all going to agree, but you probably will get a general sense of what at least the women on this forum are and are not OK with.

Finding solutions means working together at them - I understand we have similar worries and fears about things. I hope we can move forward with this understanding.

I think this is taking us way off the thread topic.

In this case - this thread is specifically about Guides, not general inclusion or exclusion - the Guides was set up as a single sex organisation to allow girls to partake in various activities and develop as people outside the presence of males because patriarchal society makes it hard for them due to female socialisation. The appropriate trans inclusion for Guides would therefore be young TIFs/transboys. But Guides have it the other way around, thus destroying their own raison d'etre.

There are many mixed sex organisations and groups - trans children of either sex would be more than welcome at all of them.

(See the direction I'm nudging you in here, sapphire? Asking women here to come up with solutions for you - not going over very well, will lead to pushback. Coming up with your own solutions - that's the beginning of a conversation.)

How do we not have similar worries and fears, TerfsUp?

I would say that it's different in various ways. You won't have grown up with the physical weakness women do. You won't have been subject to the sexual objectification girls are. You will still have markedly better physical strength than a woman. And that's not even starting on the fact that many transwomen still have their male genitals and aren't at risk of rape.

It's really great to have you here in your debate and I do get the sense that you're trying to listen to what's being said to you. I think it would go a long way if you were able to acknowledge the above differences.

Saphireflower, with all due resepct:

"society will judge us, threaten us, harm us and kill us because of our biological sex"

Yes, this! And trans people too! I hear what you are saying and I'm on your side

No, this is different for transpeople. Transpeople might be bullied, laughed at, threatened and harmed, based on how they present their identity. Not their sex, not something immutable, not the way you are born. If you are born.

Stating something like this always makes me feel the threat against women is minimized, like it is something of an oppression olympics and transgender people win.

So if you are on our side, then please acknowledge that women have the right to keep their rights and fight for your own.

How do we not have similar worries and fears, TerfsUp?

Do you really not know that men and women have different issues and concerns?

We don't have similar worries, and here's one rather unpleasant example. Women worry about being raped, and some trans women may worry about that also. Women worry that if they're raped in addition to the trauma of the rape itself they may also end up pregnant. In many places abortion is hard to come by, and so they may end up having no option but to have their rapist's baby (that this is true in many parts of the USA is particularly alarming).

Trans women can't get pregnant, so in terms of worries and fears in terms of rape women actually share more in common with trans men, who depending on where they are in their transition may still be able to get pregnant.

I find the whole idea of seregation by 'gender' ridiculous. Why would anyone need a 'feminine' only space? Why are we teaching girls that they are not girls if they aren't feminine enough (and the same with masculinity and boys) it's an appalling message to send to children. And if sex doesn't matter why are the guides excluding non trans boys?

Sorry, I don't mean to derail, I do tend to go on a bit. AAK, I'm not great at just wading in and making proposals, it's quite scary even being here, and I'm only here really to provide another perspective.

Anything else would appear to be "telling women" and I don't want to do that and I'm much better at reading and listening to be honest.

Yes, I acknowledge the differences, I'm sorry if it came across as if I didn't. I wasn't subject to that objectification and I see it now, especially with my younger friends and it makes my blood boil. I don't have much physical strength, my son in his early teens has more strength than I do, my friends can skate further than me and I have a hard time holding some positions in yoga by comparison too. But yes, I did have more physical strength at one point.

Men terrified me throughout life, they still do, too much violence. Maybe we have a difference there too, the level of violence.

I was thinking about the history of guides and apparently it started in 1909 when a group of girls turned up at a scout rally and declared themselves girl scouts

In terms of proposals I think there should be a segregation between transgirls and girls, for both parties really, for sleeping and washing etc. It's not nice to have those body differences noticed for either party. I would have thought that this was what was happening anyway, it's common sense. I don't see the harm in letting transgirls play games or work for badges and awards? That way they're included and both parties are protected.

I'd also like to see transmasculine people included in guides too so they can have a choice of scouts or guides.