Boys in Guides is wrong - letter in Sunday Times today

[CapnHaddock]

Fabulous! Thanks to Agnes and DrNic: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/allowing-boys-to-be-guides-is-wrong-v0dngnvjp?shareToken=a17a43f649f1ebc0c60077f356240fd0

"Transgirls aren't biological boys when they start taking blockers. "

This is an idea I haven't come across before - that trans children cease physically to be the sex they were born when they take puberty blockers. This is simply not true. A boy on puberty blockers is a boy on puberty blockers. Not a girl, not a something-in-between.

"Puberty blockers are the same drugs that are given to sex offenders and paedophiles (GnRH agonists) to prevent them from offending."

Do these men (and the vast vast majority of them will be men, if not all of them), stop being men when they are given these drugs?

• I didn't think we went in for "chemical castration" so am going to have a google becasue that's interesting. I thought they found that men who were treated this way continued to offend but used other body parts or objects to penetrate due to their penis not being able to do that. I may well be out of date it's not a subject I follow closely!

It seems we are going to be doing it a lot, in order that we can free up prison space by releasing sex offenders who have "served their time" but are deemed to still be a risk to the public.

Awesome

Although the only story I could find was in the express! It's in the telegraph as well but paywalled.

Massive sidetrack. BUT surely logically if taking these drugs changes these men into women, then when they are given then drugs they should be moved to female estate. OR, do they stay with the men as long as they "ID" as a man?

I can't believe they are going to trust serious sex offenders to take drugs in order to release them when they believe they still pose a risk. What is going on? Another thread.

Twelly have to agree that although my girls love it, it's mainly about being creative & making stuff (which don't get me wrong is good fun for everyone!) and little to do with thrumping around outdoors etc.

I suspect it depends a lot on the particular leaders - for various reasons lots of adult women aren't keen on thrumping around in the mud etc and while men who don't like it force themselves to if there are boys as this is what boys are supposed to do, there is little of that for girls.

So if you get non outdoorsy leaders + it's girls who are expected to enjoy doing quiet things indoors then it's not surprising that is what you get surely?

And in no way to disparage anyone - I'm not outdoorsy and would far rather sit indoors and make something than go and stand in a field in the rain, type of thing.

This is socialisation >> people - that's people of both sexes >> have different likes and dislikes but female people are expected to be quiet, indoors, and do things that benefit others / are "productive" (baking, knitting etc) while males are expected to like being loud, out of doors, and doing things that they want to do, whether they benefit anyone else / are productive is irrelevant.

So Girl Guides chiefs have introduced this policy without consultation with parents and the policy is not to inform parents when a male is sharing a tent with a girl.

And they appear to be completely unaccountable for their actions.

Is there any way to make these people accountable?

Just announced

In June our Chief Executive @JulieBentley will be stepping down to become the chief executive at @ActnForChildren. Julie's been a passionate champion for our girls and volunteers - we wish her all the best in her new role! www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/farewell-to-chief-executive-julie-bentley/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=julieannouncement …

I see the fab Karen Ingala Smith is getting attacked on twitter for posting about the GG letter.

Oh, and Julia Bentley will feel right at home with Action for Children, who have put in danger all the good work they do by partnering with Mermaids.

+ I didn't think we went in for "chemical castration" so am going to have a google becasue that's interesting. I thought they found that men who were treated this way continued to offend but used other body parts or objects to penetrate due to their penis not being able to do that. I may well be out of date it's not a subject I follow closely!

Does anyone have any research on this?

Chemical castration option to be offered to sex offenders was also reported in the Times I think.

Oh, and Julia Bentley will feel right at home with Action for Children, who have put in danger all the good work they do by partnering with Mermaids.

I used to do some work for A4C. With their most vulnerable kids.

This is horrific.

I've read it quite a bit in conversations but have no links.

Probably a different thread - didn't mean to derail - I will have a quick google though.

Oh also - the fact that the drugs that are being used on children are used to chemically castrate, makes me feel more worried, not reassured.

I think there is a lack of awareness of how visceral a reaction many people have to the idea of such major intervetions in sometimes very young children.

This is another thing I have seen - the trans orgs seem to refer to quite an old age as being the line for puberty blockers - they say it needs to be young it needs to be this age - but the age is old. I assume this is because they are prioritsing / thinking about boys, where puberty is later? With girls you'd need to be stepping in around age 8 a lot of the time. Plenty of girls start their periods at 10, they usually come about 1.5 years after it starts.

As usual this is all about the men, isn't it. Or the boys, in this case.

Well yes, but you have to worry about what damage Julia Bentley will do at Action for Children

Blockers can be prescribed from tanner stage ii iirc, which in girls is formation of breast buds. Average age of this is about 10, but for me would have been about 8, as I was in proper bras by year 5.

This is pertinent for me - DD started puberty 8.5.

Girls are getting taller stronger etc younger, puberty is triggered by body mass. She is not the only girl in her class who has started periods (yr6) and they have had yr5 as well. My DD started when she had just tunred 10, she is young in year.

What age is it for boys?

wiki says 9-11 for that stage in boys

it has 10-11 for breast buds girls though which seems late

anyway - it's an average and there are obviously a LOT of outliers.

As the Scouts accept boys and girls, I really don't understand why a boy who identifies as a girl can't be a scout? Why the need to join the girl guides?

Gosh. At that age they really should be left to be kids and experiment with different presentations. In my day it was goth/art student/ Dms etc . People could play with masculinity and femininity without damaging their body

Because they see themselves as a girl and so want to be with the girls.

Additionally, they may have had bad experiences with boys with the whole enforcement of masculinity thing and want to stay away from them, would be my guess.

Which is all understandable, however, girls need their own space for good reasons and the fact that some boys have a bad time with other boys should not mean that girls need to let them in (which is basically the argument for all of this - prisons, hosp wards, changing rooms etc).

MEN should stpo being so horrible to men and boys who do not adhere to norms of mascuinity.

This approach would help many more people - all the men and boys who get bullied and picked on by other men and boys, but who do not say they are girls.

I just thought of something funny!

It's like in the pub - men feel they have the absolute right to interject / join in with groups of women even when the women make it clear that they're not wanted. They seem oblivious -they want to talk to the women so they do. IF any of the women get blunt about how they feel rather than taking the approved approach of jollying him along while also trying to get away - the man can get VERY angry. He sees it as incredibly rude. He has no clue that it was his initial behaviour that was incredibly rude.

The reverse is not nearly so true the other way around. Yes women will chat to men in the pub but the dynamic is all different.

In the pub the men have taken themselves there of their own free will. The boys get taken to the brownies and guides by their parents.

Well maybe a bit from row 1 and a bit from row 2

Guides age they will (should be!) making their own decisions.

Anyway - was thinking more generally at that point after my PP where was thinking about prisons, hosp wards, changing rooms.

I think that boys from quite a young age feel entitled to treat girls in certain ways TBH - I've seen it at school from when they are quite little. I mean they don't do it consciously - it's socialisation isn't it. Girls are less important than boys, boys should get what they want.

@Winewinewinegin Chemical castration option to be offered to sex offenders was also reported in the Times I think.

This?
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/castration-drug-may-be-offered-to-hundreds-of-sex-offenders-70zrppgr3?shareToken=55386880ccc130b22e2ade46cdb4df67