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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boys in Guides is wrong - letter in Sunday Times today

300 replies

CapnHaddock · 15/04/2018 05:58

Fabulous! Thanks to Agnes and DrNic: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/allowing-boys-to-be-guides-is-wrong-v0dngnvjp?shareToken=a17a43f649f1ebc0c60077f356240fd0

OP posts:
AgnesBadenPowell · 16/04/2018 21:17

Re how guides started, Baden Powell didn't have much issue with girls being scouts and they were included at the very beginning.

There's the famous story of the Girl Scout patrol gatecrashing the Boy Scout tally in 1909, which led to Baden Powell asking his sister Agnes to set up an organisation just for Girls. There's also evidence that a separate organisation was needed to prevent scandals - girls out in the country hiking all day with boys, no chaperones etc. Same old story.

So while I can see how it would have been progressive to stay mixed, by becoming single sex it have girls freedom away from boys, kept them safe and protected their reputations from nasty gossip, and most importantly opened up membership to girls who's parents would not have let them join if boys were present.

And on that last point, here we are again.

Agnes struck a fine balance between doing what girls wanted and at least looking like they were doing what their parents wanted.

This website is amazing - a guide leader/historian has dedicated a huge part of her life to documenting the history of Girlguiding and is well worth a read lesliesguidinghistory.webs.com

AgnesBadenPowell · 16/04/2018 21:20

Would nt it be amazing if girl guides had said yes we welcome all (born) girls - however you present, we're not about stereotypes and gender, you can present however you wish

There's a large number of leaders out there who want just this and we are being ignored. GG have said they will not change their policies. Please do write to them if you can to say this ^^ [email protected]

MrsFionaCharming · 16/04/2018 21:28

I took my Guides rock climbing tonight. One girl got halfway up the wall, got scared and burst out crying. The other Guides were completely cool about it, offering encouragement without drawing attention to her crying. I just can’t imagine a mixed group being so lovely and supportive, and I hate that my girls might lose that.

howlsmovingcastle84 · 16/04/2018 21:38

Just to continue the point made by Sapphireflower and boys becoming girls as soon as they start blockers. I was talking with my OH about some interesting court cases. In Croft vs. Royal Mail there was a man who started to transition in his middle age and after working at Royal Mail for some time. They discussed the situation with Royal Mail who were supportive but they asked Croft to use the gender neutral disabled toilets rather than the female toilets (the female staff had complained about him being able to immediately use the female toilets). Croft went to a tribunal and appeal - both of which were found in Royal Mail's favour. Some interesting commentsDealing with gender reassignment, Lord Nicholls first considered biological criteria:

"28. The distinction between male and female exists throughout the animal world. It corresponds to the different roles played in the reproductive process. A male produces sperm which fertilise the female's eggs. In this country, as elsewhere, classification of a person as male or female has long conferred a legal status. It confers a legal status, in that legal as well as practical consequences follow from the recognition of a person as male or female. The legal consequences affect many areas of life, from marriage and family law to gender-specific crime and competitive sport. It is not surprising, therefore, that society through its laws decides what objective biological criteria should be applied when categorising a person as male or female. Individuals cannot choose for themselves whether they wish to be known or treated as male or female. Self-definition is not acceptable. That would make nonsense of the underlying biological basis of the distinction." from the judge in their summation include: 

and:

By virtue of the definition in section 82 of the Act, the category includes persons at all stages of gender reassignment under medical supervision but it does not follow that all such persons are entitled immediately to be treated as members of the sex to which they aspire.

and:

To hold that the applicant must still use the male toilets is no less unacceptable than allowing a person, who has been known to the female workforce as a man for many years and has male genitals, an immediate right to use the female toilets. While the good faith of the applicant is this case in wishing to be a woman is not in doubt, the gender test is open to abuse and, quite apart from that, what Lord Nicholls described as self-definition presents a serious practical problem in this context.

I think the idea of 'immediately becoming' the opposite sex is a key issue here and maybe something that we could work from, especially as the above is the current law. In the case of Girl Guiding-at which point do they decide that a boy 'is' a girl.

Qwertytypewriter · 16/04/2018 21:41

One girl got halfway up the wall, got scared and burst out crying. The other Guides were completely cool about it, offering encouragement without drawing attention to her crying. I just can’t imagine a mixed group being so lovely and supportive, and I hate that my girls might lose that
Its a shame you'l have such strongly stereotypical views about girls and boys. Many decades ago, I went on a school trip where we were all offered a similar, slightly scarey activity (aged about 11). On boy cried and didn't want to do it; no one was mean, due to the staff talking through it, and asking everyone to be mature and understanding. There were no repercussions for him later, we were all in class together, he was a popular kid, and continued to be so.
Boys aren't inherently mean, and nor are girls, they all need guidance now and then...but if I were to list the top 5 times I was scared or miserable as a child or teenager, I can honestly say that they were all at the hands of mean girls; don't get me wrong, I'm sure many grew up to be model citizens, but its a gross generalization to suggest that boys are unkind and lack empathy, but girls are somehow the opposite.

LangCleg · 16/04/2018 22:21

There are only about 800 children in England being treated with puberty blockers.

This is highly misleading. The 800 figure is 1-2 years old. Given the number of referrals sky rocketing as they have, this number will have increased, probably significantly.

And in any case, we aren't talking about medical transition. We are talking about self-identification. Many of these young people will have developed a trans identity after the onset of puberty and won't be on blockers.

Girls should not have to budge up for the identities of boys. Girls questioning their gender should not be managed out of an environment in which they can thrive - however they identify - and should be free from being told they must make room for the opposite sex whether they like it or not.

MrsFionaCharming · 16/04/2018 22:54

Qwerty sadly in my experience as a Scout Leader as well as a Guide Leader, girls often feel embarrassed appearing ‘girly’ and weak around boys.

And I’ve heard plenty of “Don’t be such a girl” and “This is why boys are better as sports” type comments from boys during similar situations.

AncientLights · 16/04/2018 23:01

Howlsmovingcastle: what year was that Croft vs Royal Mail ruling? It look just the thing we need right now.

0phelia · 16/04/2018 23:19

Croft v royal mail group 2003
That's really interesting!

jedenfalls · 16/04/2018 23:37

And at some point, surely the needs of girls have to take precedence in some way?

And if not in the flipping girl guides then where?

This .

This is why we can’t have nice things folks. ONE organisation cenreting girls. And it’s under attack. From its own leadership it would seem.

jedenfalls · 16/04/2018 23:38
  • It is

fgs

Bloody illiterate autocorrect

SmurfNotTerff · 16/04/2018 23:50

Don't forget to listen to Julia Hartley Brewer tomorrow morning.
She is discussing Guides, and her daughter is one.

twelly · 17/04/2018 07:02

. My view is that over the last 20 years or so as girls have joined scouts/Cubs/beavers/explorers the guiding movement has changed - guide groups in particular have become less outdoor, less adventurous and more stereotyping. The badges have changed reflecting this. Increasing numbers move to scouts from brownies or moved into scouting movement at other points due to the increasingly stereotyping of the guide activities. Guides in particular appear to have moved this way to differentiate. Therefore many guide companies whilst being a safe place for girls are somewhere where the girls who want to engage in the more adventurous and outdoor activities do not feel at home (I am not saying all guide companies are like this but certainly a large number in my experience.) therefore I don't know what is the answer regarding transgender within guiding as I feel guides as an organisation had lost its way.

2rebecca · 17/04/2018 07:32

I think that if boys start to join guides then the point of guides as a single sex organization will cease to exist and everyone might as well join scouts where you don't have to "identify" as any gender and don't get thrown out if you change your mind.
When I was in Rangers I resented scouts allowing girls as I felt some girls regarded guides as a bit wet so went for the more active Venture Scouts.

LiquoriceTea · 17/04/2018 07:41

Twelly I hope that's not the case:( My girls have joined rainbows/brownies and want to do the outside adventure stuff but like that it's just girls. My eldest is v non feminine and likes physical activity, mini feminist but u was hoping guides would do all the adventure and activity that scouts would.

ferntwist · 17/04/2018 08:01

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Havoc · 17/04/2018 08:31

LiquoriceTea, it's been a few years since my dd was in rainbows/brownies/guides, but I don't recognise twelly's post. My dd was outside so often doing activities that challenged her. Maybe it's down to the leader?

averylongtimeasSpartacus · 17/04/2018 08:46

@twelly I don't see the guide groups I know as being like this, we do everything the Scouts do and more. Over the last couple of terms my DD's group has or will this term : been climbing, learned first aid and CPR, done a night hike, swimming, been on a steam train, camped out, cooked on wood fires, made dens, and at an international camp this summer will do everything from a high ropes and water sports to zorbing.

RosenbergW · 17/04/2018 09:12

Dr Nicola Williams will be talking about this on TalkRadio at 9.20

SmurfNotTerff · 17/04/2018 09:26

Yay JHB cheering on MN

ShotsFired · 17/04/2018 09:35

"Truth is not Transphobia" - YES!

How did it ever get to the stage where this even needed to be said?!

SmurfNotTerff · 17/04/2018 09:43

Very bad statement at the end from GG.

They will fully support transgirls

i.e transboys the door is over there ---->

LiquoriceTea · 17/04/2018 10:34

Avery can my girls come to your group?! I guess you just don't know what the group is like until you join. :(

I'm saddened GG aren't listening.

LiquoriceTea · 17/04/2018 10:35

I'd have thought GG would have been fabulously placed to support feminist principles and be a space for girls :( I don't want them going mixed sex.

Pratchet · 17/04/2018 10:37

TRA prime targets are all specifically female -only. Michfest, women's aid, Guides, all women shortlists, women's equality party. Groom and infiltrate.

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