Boys in Guides is wrong - letter in Sunday Times today

[CapnHaddock]

Fabulous! Thanks to Agnes and DrNic: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/allowing-boys-to-be-guides-is-wrong-v0dngnvjp?shareToken=a17a43f649f1ebc0c60077f356240fd0

@Lancelottie my sister is trans, so no, she doesn’t bother me, but the way that this site has been so successfully taken over by a very marginal, extreme viewpoint which is so far from reality is really, really depressing.

Agnes
brilliant letter.
I was a GG many years ago, can I add my name to the list ?

I have magical powers due to the fact I'm a woman over 50
I have my own cloak of invisibility

*this site has been so successfully taken over by a very marginal, extreme viewpoint which is so far from reality is really, really depressing.^

An alternative view is that it's a subject many women are worried about, and have nowhere else to discuss the subject as TRAs bully and harrass and label ordinary women Terfs.

Ah, the invisibility cloak ...

Sian I might mention it to my MP, she is about the same age as me so she might have one too

@redshoeblueshoe yes of course. Follow the instructions here: fairplayforwomen.com/add-your-name/

one-waY As others have pointed out, please report any posts you have concerns about to MNHQ. They do not, of course, tolerate any bigotry and will delete any posts that express abhorrent views.

apologies * oneway

Right. OK, Oneway, I can see that you would feel defensive on behalf of a much-loved family member (is your sister your natal sister, i.e. female, or a former brother, by the way?). I have a lot of sympathy for you in that situation.

If they are physically male, do you believe they should have access to an all-girls society, as that is what the letter was about? If so, why?

@Lancelottie yes, trans little girls should obviously be allowed in the girl guides. It’s a completely non issue being made into something that is so far from the reality that it’s hurtful, and it’s irresponsible when so many trans young people suffer bullying and attempt to take their own lives. I only came on this because I wanted people reading this thread to know that not everyone agrees with this thread or the attitudes in it, and that many are disgusted by it. I know I won’t convince you.

@onewaytraffic
May I ask you, respectfully, what exactly do you mean by trans little girls.

oneway If you are genuine you will understand that here we are protecting our daughters.
We wish no harm on any one.

No child should be bullied. All children should be safe. Trans children should be as beloved as any child.

Why does that mean a male child should join a female-only organisation?

I am open to discussion and persuasion, but don’t see any logic to that position.

I repeat- I am massively sympathetic to any child feeling bullied or suicidal. For all around that child to pretend the child has changed sex, though, is not an answer in my view.

One-way traffic, I don't see how you can say it's a non-issue if a 13yo girl has to shower, sleep, get dressed or undressed next to a 15yo male bodied person. NSPCC state girls & boys should sleep separately from 8 onwards I believe. This has been our cultural norm for some time now. Why is that? How did it come about? One thing that always strikes me about trans activists is their lack of concern for others. GGUK is a large organisation, many of whom could be made extremely uncomfortable by these changes to policy. Why is it that the rights of the vast majority should be ignored in favour of a tiny minority? Please help me understand this.

I didn't sign originally, partly because I'm a coward but also because I couldn't see the full text - I don't sign my name to anything I haven't read in its entirety. Now I've read it I'm glad I've still got a chance to sign. I'm just marking my place so I can come back & sign at some point so my name appearing on the list can't be linked with me posting about it on MN. Because, coward.

trans little girls

There aren’t any trans little girls? If we are using ‘trans’ to define someone intending to transition then there can be no trans children. We hear that of course no child would be given drugs or any other way of transitioning until they were at least 16? I’m told that regularly.

Unless we are being told now that young children can make a decision now that will have far reaching and permanent consequences, and that they are basing this decision on a lie. The lie that they can magically and literally change sex.

I stopped taking someone seriously when she said that having a boy in a girls school wasn't going to be a problem because it wouldn't affect their Latin translations.

Translating Latin is going to be a bit challenging for the children if they don't believe in biological sex any more. How are they to know the internal gender identity of Cornelia and Sextus, given that it's impossible to ask them on account of them being fictional characters?

one no one should be being bullied. And everyone should present themselves however they wish and be free from discrimination and abuse.

But it is not the responsibility of other girls and women to deny reality to the detriment of their own safety and dignity in order to make up for the lies that the trans child has been told and the lack of care and support available.

Truscum
Completely agree with your post.
I am wholeheartedly against adults convincing a child that a child can change sex.
If an adult wants to pay for surgery they can afford to alter their secondary or primary sex characteristics fine and dandy whatever floats your boat.

"Trans little girls" sounds all too much like a boy who likes sparkly things and other trappings of femininity who's parents have decided they must therefore be a girl not a gender non-conforming boy. All very "Mermaids".

I'm guessing I'm not the only who reads "trans little girls", thinks of the boys they once know who loved sparkles/dolls/dressing up, and fears for what might happen to boys like that who're navigating childhood now.

My cousin was like that. He's now a happy, healthy gay man with a great career and a great partner.

The guidance moves Guides from being an organisation that supports and enables girls to defy gender stereotyping to an organisation that reinforces gender stereotyping and, far from supporting GNC girls, manages them out. I can't imagine worse messaging for girls. And that's before we even get to safeguarding!

Angry - this is my fear exactly :(
Lang - I think why I am so angry as I encouraged my girls yo join guiding rather than scouts for all these reasons. To defy gender stereotyping not encourage it. We might well move if that's the direction it's going in.

I feel myself softening towards little tiny boys who would like to join Rainbows (the 4 to 6 age group), as there are very few actual adverse consequences to the girls - but there may then be girls who are no longer be allowed to attend. (I have to say that I don't know whether that would be the case: would some religions or cultures have a problem with that for the youngest children?)

I knew a family with triplets whose little boy was devastated, 20-odd years ago, that he couldn't join Brownies with his sisters.

But my woolly liberal feelings aren't really the point here. Guides are legally permitted to be single-sex. As far as I can see, there is no legal right to be single-'gender' (and I do wonder, here, whether the women's colleges now permitting male self-ID women to join are equally bending the law by excluding males who don't ID as women).

Single-sex is clearly definable, and single-gender isn't.

There has to be a better way than making nonsense of the language and the law.

Tons of adverse affects to girls! A girl only environment is v different once boys are in it. Boys can go to beavers .

AAK Yes the boy who lived overcome road from me growing up was just like that. He used to want to play with my fairy wands and do skipping with us and do fancy dress as a princess! His parents were so cool about that and we loved him.

He was definitely not forced onto hormone blockers or given a new pronoun.

Happy gay adult man.