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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boys in Guides is wrong - letter in Sunday Times today

300 replies

CapnHaddock · 15/04/2018 05:58

Fabulous! Thanks to Agnes and DrNic: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/allowing-boys-to-be-guides-is-wrong-v0dngnvjp?shareToken=a17a43f649f1ebc0c60077f356240fd0

OP posts:
0phelia · 16/04/2018 09:10

*over the road

0phelia · 16/04/2018 09:15

Gender non conforming boys can do lots and lots of things outside of girl guides.
It's this repainting of single sex environments (mostly female only) being "opressive" to people (mostly men) because they are excluded rather than a normal human right to have a same sex environment if it's wanted/needed.

It reminds me of all males ever who say things like All Women Shortlists are misandrist and women-only anything is sexist etc.

Lancelottie · 16/04/2018 09:18

Do you think that kicks in from the very early years even with a very 'girly' (for want of a better word) boy joining an all-girls group, Liquorice?

I think I have a mental sliding scale - definitely no males post-puberty in supposedly female groups, probably need to start that from age 7 to cover all bases, but for very little children? I'm less sure of my view.

Lancelottie · 16/04/2018 09:21

Yes the boy who lived over the road from me growing up was just like that. He used to want to play with my fairy wands and do skipping with us and do fancy dress as a princess! His parents were so cool about that and we loved him.

That sounds like my son. Equally happy, but straight, adult man.

AngryAttackKittens · 16/04/2018 09:22

I think that little girls voluntarily accepting specific boys into their friends group because they like them and want them around is one thing, and little girls being coerced into accepting boys in organized groups like Brownies is another entirely. Little girls shouldn't be being put in an "accept this or you're meanies" position, or even worse an "it's the law so if you don't accept it you're out" one.

Juells · 16/04/2018 09:27

"accept this or you're meanies"

Woman! Know your place!

Winewinewinegin · 16/04/2018 09:51

Also, we are not doing anything illegal or immoral. It's important to remember that.

This is SO important to remember and communicate.

Standing up for and discussing biological women's and girl's rights is both legal and moral. Anyone trying to suggest it is hatespeech or scaremongering to do this is wrong.

changeypants · 16/04/2018 10:26

not specifically about GG, sorry. but this thread has made me think about my current experience of school kids.

i could call my son gender non-conforming and it would seem true compared to all the other boys in his class. he likes plenty of typical boy stuff though, it's just he likes girl stuff too and everything in between.

i just cannot believe how stereo typically gender conforming the other kids in his school are. it has hit me out of the blue, i hadn't noticed during his toddler years when i was merrily letting him wear and play with what he wanted. then suddenly boom! primary school. all the boys have the shortest of short hair, they all hate pink (his ex fave colour) to the extent that something pink can literally not be allowed to touch them, it's football this and football that and imaginative play has all but disappeared. they seem so literal and serious.

(to be clear i have nothing against short hair, colours other than pink, football, literal-mindedness and serious personalities. i think it is the lack of variation which has shocked me. i had previously thought my kid was fairly normal)

it is the lack of imaginative play which bothers me the most because i think all the boys are missing out when they don't do this. imaginative play is such good role play for life and mental health. its great for: problem-solving, relationship-navigating, the working through of big emotions, creativity etc etc. and its fun!

AngryAttackKittens · 16/04/2018 10:30

Ugh, that sounds grim. I don't think I knew any boys like what you describe when I was growing up. That's not natural, they're being taught that.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 16/04/2018 11:00

Just in case you haven't seen this

Julia HB supporting

twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/985486941096423424

Talking about it tomorrow on Talk radio too

Ifonlyus · 16/04/2018 11:51

Out of interest, what is the stance in Scouts with regards to females who identify as boys? Are they allowed to share accommodation with the males?

The idea of excluding a young male (who ids as a girl) - who might be experiencing other struggles - from Rainbows and Brownies does pull at the heart strings and I can see why parents, leaders and other girls will have wanted to be inclusive for individual cases. But laws and rules cannot be made on the basis of individual cases. Laws and rules have to consider the 'what ifs' even if they sound improbable to some.

And joining UK Guiding is not a compulsory rite of passage for all female children. Less than half of the girls in my DD's classes joined Rainbows/Brownies/Guides. The majority of clubs for children are mixed-sex.

CapnHaddock · 16/04/2018 12:25

It's interestingly all about girls who ID as boys but seems to encourage unisex facilities and privacy: members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

How can I manage the sleeping arrangements? There is no rule in Scouting stating that young people must be split by gender for sleeping arrangements. Sleeping arrangements should be carefully planned, assessing the needs and ages of young people, and any risks. A young person may be binding their chests or wearing very tight underwear to flatten themselves. The chance to privately remove this clothing overnight is very important.

Some options to consider, risk assess and discuss with the young person/family, are as follows:

Sharing with other young people of their true gender (or their biological sex if they would prefer), either in large or small tents with their trusted friends.
Large tents with various sleeping compartments, discretely allocating the young person their own compartment for privacy.
Having their own tent / room.

They've also been advised by Mermaids though - that page talks about dysphoria in two year olds Hmm

OP posts:
thenorthernluce · 16/04/2018 12:35

Wonderful letter. This is my first “contribution” to a trans discussion on Mumsnet, a topic I am only just learning about, but I thought the letter was a brillianot, succinct, factual representation of the issue at hand, and of the general issue of female-only spaces, and I’d like to commend those who took the time to contribute and/or put their name to it.

RosenbergW · 16/04/2018 13:07

Here is the board of Trustees
www.girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/our-organisation/how-girlguiding-is-run/meet-our-trustees/

I wonder if all could be asked for statements on this issue?

There is an 'audit and risk' committee and a 'remuneration' committee that seem relevant. Are the Girl Guides breaking Equality law or defying any other legislation here? How are groups representing diverse minority communities (Muslim girls and women for example) impacted by this and were they ever consulted? Were the membership and the volunteers consulted? What safeguarding risk evaluation work and consultation was done regarding having teenage males and male leaders join the Guides? Which women and girl's organisations were consulted? Etc.

How many leaders and parents are needed to call for a vote of no confidence and a review of the decisions of the Trustees?

Here are the sub committee roles:

"Each sub-committee is chaired by a Trustee. They make recommendations back to the Board if they think that something significant within their remit needs to be changed.

Nominations and Governance - oversees the appointment of Trustees and sub-committee members, and considers board development and succession planning.

Audit and Risk - scrutinises the fine detail of the risk register and receives reports on how risks are being managed. The committee also oversees the annual audit process.

Finance - oversees the review and implementation of Girlguiding’s financial strategy and supports the Board in the effective scrutiny of Girlguiding finances.

Operational Board - leads the operational delivery of guiding within the countries and regions, ensuring that national Girlguiding strategy is delivered and reviewing performance against agreed KPIs; acts as a sounding board to the Board of Trustees by considering the impact of national policies and plans on guiding locally.

Remuneration - reviews performance and development of the Chief Executive and has oversight of organisational remuneration."

There is also a Council:

"The role of the Council
The Council represents Girlguiding’s membership. Members bring their own individual roles and views, as well as talking with people in local guiding to bring a range of input to consultations on our direction."

Were they consulted on this? How was the consultation carried out? What information was (or was not) provided to the consulted members? How were questions worded?
What were the results of the consultation?

How are the Girl Guides funded? Are they fulfilling all of their obligations for that funding?

I think there could be potential in following all of this up but I don't feel qualified to do so. Is there a qualified legal person available to look at all of this? The size of the outcry from women against these policies is immense now.

RosenbergW · 16/04/2018 13:09

Shorter post - what are the internal details here and who can be held responsible?

Juells · 16/04/2018 13:21

Laws and rules have to consider the 'what ifs' even if they sound improbable to some.

I can't remember where the saying "Hard cases make bad law" came from, but it's true.

Ah, googled and found it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_cases_make_bad_law

ShotsFired · 16/04/2018 13:38

My MP is against GRA (not proactively, just against most modern stuff!) and I have wiki'd him to find he has a daughter. I can imagine she was a Guide in her day as well.

I might pop him another line, just to point this out.

OlennasWimple · 16/04/2018 17:11

Great letter, well done to everyone involved in drafting and signing

FWIW I read the GG guidance on young transmen as meaning that someone isn't required to leave as soon as they "come out" as trans, but the expectation is that they will eventually decide that GG is not the organisation for them

flowersonthepiano · 16/04/2018 17:16

Juells that wiki site also has a section 'bad law makes hard cases'

sapphireflower · 16/04/2018 17:21

Again I'm sorry for such a long post.

It's interesting to read people's thoughts and feelings. I've spent nearly a decade listening to trans, intersex and non-binary people in a variety of ways. On the whole, trans, intersex and non-binary people not as connected to their biological sex as non-trans people are. Obviously it's part of who they are, but I notice how strongly non trans people are connected with their sex and how vehemently they defend this position, and anything that threatens this must be terrifying.

And it is similar with trans, non-binary and intersex people. In that respect, they are very similar in their relationship with their identity. They see their identities as real, and true, and will argue the case and get quite upset if people don't understand them. It can cause quite some tension when people with a binary (male/female) identity clash with a non-binary one.

I'm in a position of having experiences outside of what non-trans people have, but also I understand how non-trans people feel as well (having lived my life surrounded by them, and by reading the comments here).

Coming back to the OP and the comments, I'm wondering where/how they came up with the statistics on the numbers of CSA where the perpetrator is also child - there is no reference and I've searched the NPCC, NAPAC, the ONS, crime statistics and can't find nearly as many. I wonder if any of the mums/parents could provide a citation?

What I did find was this:
www.nspcc.org.uk/services-and-resources/research-and-resources/2017/characteristics-children-who-display-harmful-sexual-behaviour/

I understand it might be a bit leftfield about the issues but I genuinely would be interested and would like to stay informed. However, it comes across as scaremongering if inflated numbers are used and no source is provided. I'm under no illusions - most perpetrators of sexual violence are male and most victims are female (although, from what I've read, things even out when looking at younger children). It is quite a lot to trawl through, though and I didn't have the spoons to go much further.

I'm very much for including trans and non-binary people into society, having a non-sex based identity, I'm very much aware of how damaging social isolation is.

Most people have be brought up in a society that is tightly formed around sex based cultures and sex based identities and it can be distressing and frightening when this changes. It's also frightening and distressing when trans people try to access services from our "sex-based identity" heavy culture.

How we integrate with each other, respecting each other with humanity, compassion and empathy is a process of change. Trans people weren't heard of when I was little, western culture did its best to eradicate us and so we have a lot of discussion which is about storming and norming. So discussing things on all sides is great and I hope it leads to a better understanding of each other.

I guess it means asking questions and listening to each other. I find feminism quite difficult, because there are so many different types of feminists and movements and ideologies, but I read a lot of sex-based feminist ideas here. When your identity isn't sex-based, it kinda clashes with the idea of sex based feminism! I can only hope that people can work together to dismantle patriarchy because it oppresses women, children, minorities and non-sex identified people as well.

I'm digressing a bit, but I'd like to ask a few questions relating to the OP.

How do we integrate non-sex identified people into a traditionally sexed society, while still respecting their identity?

How do we maintain safety for everyone including children who are trans while maintaining equal power and inclusion within those groups?

We don't know much about the demographics of trans children, we don't know how many trans children have sexually damaging behaviour because they aren't included in statistics yet - we're only assuming because of statistics on boys/men.

Why do children abuse? Well evidence says it's more likely they're from families in which abuse, violence and neglect has become routine and abuse is rife and intergenerational. www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/what-drives-a-child-to-commit-sexual-abuse-2114974.html

I think trans children are more likely to come from loving and supportive families because they listen to their child and support their child in their wishes and needs.

Puberty blockers are the same drugs that are given to sex offenders and paedophiles (GnRH agonists) to prevent them from offending. Are these children ok to be in sex-based activities or do they need to be excluded too?

Men who have transitioned / transmen often talk of how their sex drive goes through the roof because of the action of testosterone. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5569315/ Are people who have high levels of testosterone at more risk of abusing others?

I think there are so many questions and so many variables with people, and with trans people particularly, it's not as easy to put them into a "sex based" box/statistics when their identity and physiology are so variable.

Havoc · 16/04/2018 17:49

Women and girls need sex segregation because of safety and comfort and to redress the sexism in society, not to validate some sort of sex identity. Those who want to remove sex based segregation need to remove the need for it first.

sapphireflower · 16/04/2018 17:57

I completely agree, havoc. Trans people need safety and comfort too. How is that achieved at the same time?

Havoc · 16/04/2018 18:01

This is 'feminist chat' it's not a place where women have to come up solutions for people who are not women and girls.

AngryAttackKittens · 16/04/2018 18:04

Obviously it's part of who they are, but I notice how strongly non trans people are connected with their sex and how vehemently they defend this position, and anything that threatens this must be terrifying.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of our position. Women are aware of male people being a threat to our safety, because we have to be. We are also aware of the fact that our societal oppression is based on our sex (ability to bear children, fact that men want to have sex with us, relative smallness and weakness compared to men). Many/most of us prefer not to be naked in mixed sex spaces for reasons of both safety and privacy, and the idea that privacy is best maintained by not sharing spaces involving nudity with people whose sex is not the same as ours is common in most cultures (and certainly in the UK).

We are not feeling threatened by some sort of existential angst related to our sex, our fears are practical ones. This is not about "identity".

sapphireflower · 16/04/2018 18:07

Not all feminists are trans exclusive.

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