Boys in Guides is wrong - letter in Sunday Times today

[CapnHaddock]

Fabulous! Thanks to Agnes and DrNic: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/allowing-boys-to-be-guides-is-wrong-v0dngnvjp?shareToken=a17a43f649f1ebc0c60077f356240fd0

I'm sorry there are too many comments directed towards me and I can't respond to everyone, but I'm reading them all.

Yes oppression is different, women who are fertile can get pregnant and transwomen can't. I don't like oppression olympics either, so I'm not entering into it, although I appreciate all the hurt and injustice.

But sapphireflower, did you not read LangCleg's comment:

the Guides was set up as a single sex organisation to allow girls to partake in various activities and develop as people outside the presence of males because patriarchal society makes it hard for them due to female socialisation.

Transgirls are boys. Girls deserve a single sex space where they can be themselves. There are lots of mixed sex organisations, transgirls should be welcome in them.

You are brave to come here and talk to us by the way.

Transgirls aren't biological boys when they start taking blockers. They also live and are socialised as girls. Trans people are different when it comes to socialisation, for me I focused on the messages for women and girls, and I've talked with trans men who say the opposite was true. I know it's about how society treats you as well as what you internalise but this is what transchildren are doing - living and being socialised as their identity.

And thank-you, it's scary.

Then if they're neither male nor female they're welcome to start their trans only groups, or join mixed groups.

But guides really is for those born female.

And obviously should support those born female with identity issues and exploring gender etc.

Transgirls are biological boys. If they weren’t boys they’d not be transgirls, they’d be girls.

They live and are socialised as boys. As evidenced by trying to take over the girls space of girl guides.

Trans children are victims of this madness. They should be allowed to be GNC children and if they wish to make permanent cosmetic changes to their bodies do so when they are adults.

Trans children are like vegan cats. We all know who is making the decisions.

sapphireflower, it's worth at this point stating that biological males cannot become biological females and vice versa.

Puberty blockers suppress the release of oestrogen or testosterone but they do not erase the way a child has been socialised. So a transgirl will have been socialised male and may well expect to talk over females (see India Willoughby and Justine Roberts on Julia Hartley-Brewer's talk radio show this morning for a prime example of male vs female socialisation).

I am aware that these statements may be hurtful to you, they are not intended as a personal attack.

I would have thought that this was what was happening anyway, it's common sense.

Common sense seems to be in remarkably short supply in relation to this issue, unfortunately.

yes LiquoriceTea, I think the 'managing out' of gender non conforming girls is the most pernicious thing in all this.

Why do they have to be 'managed' away from their friends and support structures at what will certainly be a very difficult time for them? Solely it seems to satisfy an ideology that says that gender should take precedence over sex.

Really, who would decide to do that to children?

This would be fine as long as there were enough of them to form a group, but the trouble is there aren't that many of them. There are only about 800 children in England being treated with puberty blockers.

Brownies, guides, senior section was such a big part of my daughters life, I feel for trans children, but I realise that many don't go on to physically transition, I understand people's concerns.

the Guides was set up as a single sex organisation to allow girls to partake in various activities and develop as people outside the presence of males because patriarchal society makes it hard for them due to female socialisation
Have you a reference for that info? I believe it was set up because a group of girls turned up to a boy scouts rally, and wanted to join in (so Baden Powell set up a girls thing to separate them off). I don't see anything about it being to assist them in escaping the influence if a patriarchal society - it looks more like they were politely segregated by that society!

And no, I don't believe that a trans identifying boy ceases to be a boy at some point in the process. Outward appearance can be changed but sex cannot, and socialization starts at birth.

It's a matter of whose needs take priority where they conflict sapphireflower. And at some point, surely the needs of girls have to take precedence in some way?

And if not in the flipping girl guides then where?

Transgirls aren't biological boys when they start taking blockers. They also live and are socialised as girls

I mean this kindly because despite what has been said about me online, I really do only want the best for all the children in my unit, in our whole society.

Puberty blockers will impact hormone levels and affect the development of the brain and body going forward, but that's all. The boy or girls body stays as it is, suspended in time almost, as experienced by Jazz (please do correct me if I've misunderstood).

Socialisation starts from birth. Even before birth, with gender reveals and pink/blue shit. A child will have experienced socialisation of their birth sex, even if they transition very young.

This is why I'm so passionate about keeping GG open to all gender non conforming girls / trans boys. Of course it's their decision but we should be starting from a place of "this is your organisation, we are your friends, your supporters. You are welcome here for as long as you want. We will support you in any way we can, whether by staying with us or by us helping you explore other organisations if GG doesn't feel right any more".

These are still biological girls, who've experienced the same socialisation (even if only up to a point) as any other girl. GG is was a great place for girls to be free from stereotypes and gender expectations.

Alright Qwertytypewriter, lets say that it is a happy accident that the sex segratation imposed by Baden-Powell led to girls being provided with a single sex environment where they could flourish, away from the male gaze.

That was certainly one of the things I valued most about Guides.

I still seek out the company of women now. These days I enjoy being a member of the WI.

Even if (and I disagree for many reasons) transchildren are somehow exempted from the socialisation others of their sex undergo, non trans children are not. Teenage girls are often inhibited and/or modify behaviour around males. There are many reasons guides is segregated by sex and it's not all about privacy or sleeping arrangements.

Would nt it be amazing if girl guides had said yes we welcome all (born) girls - however you present, we're not about stereotypes and gender, you can present however you wish.

yes LiquoriceTea, it would have been amazing, wise, considerate.

shame that they didn't manage it.

I bloody love liquorice tea by the way. gonna make myself one now!

Yes! And instead of this they are being told well and truly that there is a 'correct' gender stereotype for each sex and not confirming means you are 'trans'.

'Not conforming' I meant.

Would nt it be amazing if girl guides had said yes we welcome all (born) girls - however you present, we're not about stereotypes and gender, you can present however you wish.

There's no virtue-signalling possible with that.

Would nt it be amazing if girl guides had said yes we welcome all (born) girls - however you present, we're not about stereotypes and gender, you can present however you wish.

YES!

The WI? Now there’s a target...

The WI has already capitulated.

There’s nothing more feminine and validating than Jam and Jerusalem.