Boys in Guides is wrong - letter in Sunday Times today

[CapnHaddock]

Fabulous! Thanks to Agnes and DrNic: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/allowing-boys-to-be-guides-is-wrong-v0dngnvjp?shareToken=a17a43f649f1ebc0c60077f356240fd0

The perceived rights of a tiny number of trans-identifying males should take precedence over the actual rights of millions of female-born girls? Without parents being informed?
Why is that?

Scouts may be boys only or mixed. Why the burning need to get males shoe-horned into Guides in the full knowledge that it prevents girls needing girls-only provision from joining?

I see there are already comments trying to twist the letter into hate speech. The article they’ve linked to was published yesterday.

the current guidelines say female young people with a trans identity should be encouraged to leave Guides. We feminists are saying they should stay
It's so great to see such for common sense when it comes to Transpeople.
Lately there are far more girls identifying as Transgender as they explore their identities in a highly gendered society. It is awful to see Guides trying to exclude them.

I'm sorry to say I didn't get round to signing the guides petition. Twitter is claiming lots of people pulled out. Has there been a problem? I don't trust what twitter says, having seen such blatant lying there.

If anything, most people missed the very tight deadline and have been included on the Fairplayforwomen site - as I have myself. Over 600 of us, I think.

There seems to be confusion going on-the top of the letter says about 200 signitures but if you actual read to the end they have a link to over 300 additional signitures from members of the public.

I think it's amazing they got so many signatures and that so many are happy to speak out. I feel very strongly about these issues, but have a friend whose dd is now a transman, and so cannot publicly use my name as I could lose her as a friend.

I signed it as 'a concerned member of the public' and my name is included on the Fairplayforwomen site.

I signed this letter as a leader, but my signature doesn't show as I used initials not my full first name. I didn't see the update about this until this morning.

Another family member, also a leader, missed out signing for the same reason.

Another couldn't sign as she is a civil servant and not allowed to take part in political campaigning or she could loose her job.

And that's just 3 people I have heard from this morning.

The #forallgirls thing on twitter is the echo chamber who are trying to convince themselves that we’re all bigots. They’re a bit economical with the truth, to say the least, as the letter clearly has the link to many other signatures (just not ones affiliated with GGUK). 700 signatures in such a short time period is amazing.

The TRAs and particularly those invested in transitioning children cannot take anyone questioning the ideology. They’re so brittle about it that one can only surmise that they’re not as convinced as they claim to be and somewhere they know that they’re doing harm.

They thrive on sending false information. Thrive on it.

This demonstrates just how fringe these anti trans rights views are within Guiding, the wider British public and the UK Media led by the Times.

Would you say the same about the 'fringe' suffragettes? That they were just a insignificant minority

This doesn't at all suggest that gender ID concerns are 'fringe' but rather that women have been intimidated to shut up and put up with the self ID BS. We all know that TA are a heavy handed bunch. Even politicians have been intimidated to toe the line. Enough is enough.

hope not distracting - but just wondering where in the policy it states re girl who identify as male should be encouraged to leave?

(i couldn't see where it said that and am interested to see how it was worded)

Thanks!

As for the "whataboutery" up thread: Guiding has always been single sex, just for natal girls. In 2011 they went to court to defend this after a boy tried to join Rangers.
Now they are changing the rules to include boys who identify as girls, while excluding girls who identify as boys or who are bi.
There are other organisations who accept boys and girls, there is only Guiding which is just for girls, and they should not be able to just say "girls and boys who identify as girls, obut not those boys (who identify as boys) and not those girls (who identify as boys)" that not how the anti discrimination laws work.

Hello - just to clarify about signatories. No one pulled out

Because the list was so long the Sunday Times decided to only use the names of people with a direct link to Guiding, either leaders, parents with daughters currently in guiding and former members. However, they also link to another 300+ names of the general public. This list, including everyone who contacted us is actually in total over 750.

You can see all the names. If anyone got missed off I'm so story. I was up in the early hours compiling the list and a few must have fallen through the net!

fairplayforwomen.com/guiding/

Brilliant work DrW

Great work @DoctorW - I’m proud to have put my name to this.

Thank you, DrW.

The letter is BRILLIANTLY written BTW whoever wrote it

@picklemepopcorn

Can you pm me the comments on twitter peddling rumours people pulled out please. Typical spoiling tactics.

"@aaarrrggghhhh Sun 15-Apr-18 09:39:42
hope not distracting - but just wondering where in the policy it states re girl who identify as male should be encouraged to leave?
(i couldn't see where it said that and am interested to see how it was worded)"

This perfectly encapsulates the propaganda and misinformation of Mumsnet in which facts are discarded in favour of hyperbole by anonymous posters who are looking through the goggles of transphobia. The policy doesn't say trans boys should be asked to leave. The policy takes a very sensible approach but why let the facts get in the way of spin?

It is a pointless exercise attempting to fact check the disinformation and outright lies I see from anti-trans rights activists. Mumsnet has become such a toxic environment that anyone who might be inclined to engage and challenge has been made to feel unwelcome as the entire womens_rights forum has been radicalised and whipped up into an anti trans echo chamber. I've even seen reasonable fact checking posts be deleted within minutes as they've been mass reported for breaking the grain.

If anyone takes the time to read the published guidance they would read:
"We understand that if a young member is transitioning from female to male that they will be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. Flexibility and the Leaders’ discretion in conversation with the parents must be used to determine how long the child stays within the unit."

I know of no instance where a trans child has been asked to leave a Guiding group. I know of many examples of inclusion.

@aaarghhh

www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/letstalkaboutgender_leaders.pdf

Under 'Membership of Girlguiding':

"We understand that if a young member is transitioning from female to another gender identity, they will be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. It may be that they would be better supported in an organisation that is available to all genders."

And under 'What should I do if a young member tells me they do not identify as a girl?'

"The young member may prefer a different pronoun such as ‘he’ or ‘they’; this can be respected if and when the young member wishes while they remain part of the organisation."
and
"at the right time, you may wish to begin to work with the young member to find another organisation that may better support their needs, for example an organisation open to all genders."

(my bold)

I signed, but I am a position to be able to do so. If anyone doesn't understand why people are wary of putting their name on a list:

but Theskyisgrey

"to determine how long the child stays within the unit." - this statement clearly is based on the basic position that the child WILL leave the unit? What it says is flexible is how long before they leave. The question of leaving (i.e. a biological female having transited) is presented as not in doubt.

If that is NOT the position then the policy is wording incorrectly.

didn't work - try again

WTGLWGH

Strange these people don't use their own names to post.