Ulster Rugby Rape Trial - Not guilty to all charges

[Quimby]

Verdict just returned
Not guilty to all four accused, all unanimous decisions.

Except rape hasn't happened here Elen. Unless you have proof?

I'll be sure to tell the families Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman no murder took places because there wasn't proof.

Sashh

That's already the law. A man must have an honest belief that they have consent.

An honest belief is defined as one that a reasonable person would have held in the same circumstances.

Basically what I infer from most rape cases is that "reasonable belief" means "no cast iron proof she said no".
Fucking so upset about this case.

According to a recent interview with Ched Evans, he still gets abuse from the crowd at away matches: shouts of “rapist” and so on. Excuse me while I play the world’s tiniest violin for him.

I can’t get my head around the inconsistencies in the defence’s evidence. Was it ever addressed in the trial that the woman who entered the room testified that she saw Jackson having sex with the complainant yet he testified that he did not? And both were testifying for the defence?

Had I been on the jury, I’d have been wrestling with that for a lot longer than three hours. That and the matter of the injuries and the blood, of course.

Dara Florence was a state witness not a defence one

And the prosecution did highlight it, the defence also put it to her that she was mistaken which she denied.

She also said that what she witnessed appeared to be consensual so who knows how much that affected the jury’s thinking etc

this is so depressing. The damage of not being believed must be as damaging as the rape itself.

I have had a sexual situation which I have regretted it after and felt all sorts of shit but I'd not have put myself through reporting it, getting examined etc. Although consent was dubious I kind of knew it wouldn't stand up as rape.
I expressed regret and shame to my mates but wouldn't have cried in front of two strangers.

For this girl to report it hours later and then saw it through, for me shows that it was more than regret.

I'm going to sit with my 16 year old Dd later and talk through this case as well. Let her see how some blokes view women and talk about keeping herself safe again as it seems like that's our only option as long as men aren't held accountable.

This isn't much solace but it's not over for them yet:

"The IRFU and Ulster Rugby note the verdict handed down today at the Belfast Crown Court in relation to the case brought against Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding. We wish to acknowledge that this has undoubtedly been a difficult and extremely traumatic time for all involved.
To respect the judicial proceedings, the IRFU and Ulster Rugby postponed any internal review of the matter with the players, until the proceedings concluded.

IRFU and Ulster Rugby officials will review the matter, in line with existing procedures for all contracted players. A Review Committee, made up of senior representatives of the IRFU and Ulster Rugby, has been appointed and will conclude its review as soon as practicable.

The players will continue to be relieved of all duties while the Review Committee is in process and determining its findings."

Have they brought the game into disrepute? I'd hope I know the answer to that. However let's see if a male dominated, deeply "boys will be boys" culture can have been dragged into the 21st century.... somehow I am not full of hope.

I have much more time for Olding (who apologised) than for Jackson who is allowing his lawyer to talk about suing for recovery of costs  and saying she has a "victim mentality".

Fucking vile. How can he sleep at night? I know it's just a job to this lawyer but that is so unnecessary and deeply unpleasant.

There is a difference between regret and rape. Maybe be sure you know all the facts before you jump on the 'I believe you' bandwagon.

Oh fuck off. Stop perpetuating rape myths. Do you seriously think a woman who regrets having sex with someone would put themselves through what the victim in this case has been through? Really?

Think about what you are saying.

I believe her
I believe her
I BELIEVE HER.

Quite honestly Delete, you don't have all the information. Great that you believe her but it's meaningless. You weren't in the room that night and you weren't even in the courtroom. There's a lot being said on here that is slightly but importantly misleading. And the poster who said 'there's a difference between rape and regret', I suspect might be a bit closer to the case.

I do hope however that the case highlights and brings up for discussion how rape is handled and viewed both by the general public and the courts. It's always been a very very tricky area to prosecute but to now, little effort has been made to improve it.

What makes you think that that poster is close to the case? Interested to know...

Also feel free to correct any misinformation you have seen on this thread. It's better for everyone to have the facts.

Given only the facts that I'm aware of from the press reporting, I'm completely divided on this case. But there's one argument which was presented in court that I keep coming back to in my head. That the woman had a fear that pictures/videos were taken by the woman who walked in and end up on social media and seen by her family and friends. Would she have felt she had ruined her life in that situation? Would she have done anything to try and make the situation better? Did that awful fear and feeling of humiliation if any photos were ever to be circulated on social media get compounded into a feeling that she felt humiliated at the time? Some of the things I have read have made me feel the verdict was wrong and some of the things I have read have made me feel the verdict was right. Despite the verdict, the guys have not come off well from this, and I hope they're not allowed to play rugby for their country again, if only because of their whatsapp messages. But I have to be honest, I do keep coming back to this argument.

Taking photos or video of sexual activity and sharing them on social media with the intent of shaming the participant is a crime.

This argument is a big reach to me. Is there any evidence such photos videos exist (presumably not as they would have been valuable evidence)?

Is there any argument beyond "what if?" that she might reasonably have thought such pictures existed, or is it in the same category as the "sexual regret" argument - just something to throw out there as pure speculation.

“Is there any argument beyond "what if?" that she might reasonably have thought such pictures existed, or is it in the same category as the "sexual regret" argument - just something to throw out there as pure speculation.”

It stems from her own evidence, she said she turned her head with dara Florence entered the room as she feared she might be recording or have her phone out

Sounds like a defence straight out of the narcissists prayer:

I didn't do it...
But if I did do it she wanted it..
And if she didnt want it she didn't tell me...

Paddy j has insensed me with his lawyers speech. He thinks he's done nothing wrong. At least Stuart o has apologized and said there were different perceptions of what happened that night. I think that seems the most likely truth. No way pj should play for Ireland again. I don't want that kind of message going out to my little boys, just starting to play rugby. It's supposed to be a "game for gentlemen" which pj has clearly no concept of. There should be education around consent at the irfu, and in schools and rugby clubs before teenage boys are old enough to go out and drink and go on tours. If the irfu said they were going to bring in that kind of education then it would be something.

"he still gets abuse from the crowd at away matches: shouts of “rapist”"

That'll be from the other teams supporters though.

Those same people would not shout it if they supported CE side.

That's not about people caring about what he did, it's about football tribalism.

Olding definitely managing the aftermath better than PJ who’s gone straight on the offensive

Quite simply:

I believe her.

Every time this happens, I feel completely vindicated for not reporting. I have nothing but admiration for the young woman in this case, and her calm demeanour in the face of an intolerable onslaught of character assassination, but I wouldn't have had the strength to do that myself.

I hope she's safe and being well cared for by people who love her.

If I were her I would pursue a civil action. Lower burden of proof.

In fact we had a case down south with Ian Bailey suing police for their actions and he came out of it worse from the case than he went into it. That is a possibility for those guys if they pursue their action here too. It would be worth the crown vigorously contesting a civil case.

They don’t just play Rugby in Ireland unfortunately. Even if the IRFU kick them out they will play abroad. Plenty of other leagues will be happy to have them. The joys of an international patriarchy.

Ulster rugby have actually tweeted about female screening day for women who are interested in playing rugby - thankfully the comments make it clear how ridiculous it is.

WRT the woman thinking she might have been filmed. I suspect there must have been talk of people being filmed having sex amongst the group prior to her being in the bedroom for her to jump to that conclusion. Dara Florence was the one who walked into the room and is also the person who has a video of her having sex being shared up and down the country. People were initially claiming it was the complainant but it has now been confirmed to be Dara Florence who is getting called all sorts of names online. I’m speculating that Dara had been discussing that video or maybe others like it with the complainant or maybe within her earshot that night and that’s why she immediately assumed Dara Florence was filming her when she walked in.