Labour has failed women.

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twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/970753923945582593?s=21

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/self-defining-trans-women-to-be-allowed-on-labours-all-women-parliamentary-shortlists-partys-nec-set-to-announce-equalities-committee_uk_5a9d94f4e4b0479c0255e9c2

This about libertarians and free speech alot of them are young. like milo; On a utube with julie biddel he looked quite adoring of her, Was strange. So that youth demographic might shake down. And the right have their identitarians too who have personal/polical issues. The youth left unity could fall apart if the right became louder. Right wing young people don;t become active unless they are really pushed though.

I'm really in awe of all you women who can analyse politically, like this.

It's fascinating. Thank you.

It's kind of funny, this whole time they've been blaming all resistance on feminists and assuming that as long as they can shut us up they're home free.

Yes, quite. They've treated it as a factional lefty issue while failing to see that the downsides of transgenderism really haven't hit the general public yet. The endless problem with the left - blind to anything outside its internal factional issues.

RedToothBrush is right. There is a lot of money swilling about in free speech circles. Posie Parker's case will be of great interest to them.

And then there's the pragmatic man in the street. Not that bothered about "men in dresses" while those "men in dresses" are confining themselves to buggering about making me-me-me media careers or nicking abstruse women's roles in local political parties - but not going to be at all happy when those "men in dresses" take this as an open invitation to colonise every space going.

I think the crucial moment will come with a child scandal - a detransitioner will suddenly catch the zeitgeist, Mermaids will collapse in scandal, a girl will come home pregnant because some stupid org allowed mixed sex overnight accommodation for teens. Something. And then it will all be a domino topple.

I think the threat to children will be their undoing too. Eventually this issue will touch the children of someone with real power who isn't drinking the kool-aid and they'll raise hell.

Yes. And because the whole thing is built on such a house of cards, it will just take one thing to catch the public mood and it will all fall down. We just have to hope this happens before women's rights are removed because we won't get them back for decades, if ever, if they are. And the transsexuals will be the awful collateral damage.

I knew this sort of thing would happen when Corbyn got a nomination for leader and the angry male contingent on the supposed "far left" realised they had an opportunity to infiltrate the Labour Party.

They've been looking for such a chance for decades. One organisation and movement after another has been destroyed by entryism from these people. They will destroy Labour.

Another thing I'll just mention is about spoiled ballots. Although they are recorded, they don't have any real impact. The only people that see them are electoral workers and maybe candidates and election agents if they are there when a paper is being counted.

But what is noticed and poured over is party vote totals and where those votes have been cast (ie. which polling station) . Agents notice if their presumed vote totals are up or down significantly, particularly at local level and particularly if those numbers are down in what they thought was a solid ward.

So, if you want them to take notice, it's far better to vote for a minority party in your ward on roughly the same political page as you than it is to spoil your ballot. At local level, election agents and parties will notice if they've lost 100 to 200 votes in your ward and another party has gained them.

Woman's Hour on R4 just did a feature on why women are still underrepresented and less engaged in politics. No mention at all of changes to AWS and #LabourLosingWomen, and Labour were held up as being more hospitable to women. Pointless, misleading article and deeply disappointing. If I was able to stick my head above the parapet on Twitter I'd call them out on it.

I think this is where the difference between classic liberals and modern liberals really is showing up. Classic Liberals (and libertarians) are the champions of free speech and a free press.

UKIP and the LDs used to have an overlap in voters. These were the libertarians who believed in free speech. Some of them were frankly outright racist and deservedly should be called on it but at the same time I think there was something of a point here. It wasn't so much the calling out of racism, it was the way it was done.

I think my mind changed somewhat since the referendum. There were valid arguments which I did understand and did see in amongst the dog whistles. But the way in which they dominated it made it hard to argue or make a point against that.

I've gone much more back to my roots where my lectures said, beware of censorship of any kind as it can be used against you. I think I understand their point far better now than I ever did.

This is why I think the LDs have somewhat lost their way here. Vince Cable has been going on shouting about racists and isn't seeing past that. Its a mistake. In the same way Farron was forced out of the leadership for being homophobic on a personal level despite ALWAYS voting to the contrary.

Farron might be wrong, but as long as he is respectful of others way of life, you are never going to police his thoughts. It only leads to bitterness and problems. You have to argue the point in different ways (and clearly Farron listened enough to understand why he shouldn't impose his views on others and why his views were harmful to express).

Instead they have embraced this 'progressive liberalism' which is actually both undemocratic and illiberal in practice. And totally at odds with the name of the party.

The Labour Party has gone the other way slightly, shouting how progressive and liberal they are whilst at the same time Corbyn, last week actively and unashamedly embraced the racist tones of the former UKIP lot whilst also taking on an authoritarian tack on feminists without any hint of irony and no awareness of hypocrisy. Nor the harm which this actually does.

This is a difficult area to navigate, but the lack of self awareness and the huge political blindspots that have appears are the real issue.

People have simply forgotten the principles of liberal democracy and what it needs to function properly.

Short version of the above: If you find yourselves going arggghhh, why are the only party saying this is a pile of shit UKIP, its not cos you've lost the plot - this is why. Free speech.

Great posts RedToothBrush .
I notice that the Labour party are also yet again in difficulties over anti - semitism. They don't seem to miss any opportunity to parade anti semitism and misogyny do they?

news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-admits-being-member-of-controversial-facebook-group-11281462

Also the Mail's article: www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5485917/DAN-HODGES-Corbyn-anit-Semetic-pals-smashed-moral-compass.html

The bitter truth is the left needs the right and the right needs the left.

If you demonise either too much you end up with problems.

The bitter truth is the left needs the right and the right needs the left.

Yes. This is an essential tension in a healthy democracy.

I think our problem at the moment is that the centre has collapsed (it's not just us; it's all over Europe and the US too) and so instead of that essential tension, we have a deeply unhealthy and potentially dangerous kind of symbiosis.

God I love Mumsnet - there is so much thought-provoking debate, recent posts ^ a case in point. Thank you for continuing to debate and challenge.

I was listening to the same programme hometerf and thinking exactly the same thing. But I guess they only had an allotted few minutes, which meant that the discussion couldn't be opened up. Very frustrating though.

What a sorry state of affairs this is.

I have written to my local labour rep advising them why I have cancelled my membership and why I will no longer give them my vote in any future election, I would advise others to do the same. Even if you don't pay a membership fee, let them know that they have lost your vote.

May not make a difference but you never know, and it will be interesting to find out the extent of the Labour Party who support this nonsense.

Sad thing is I have absolutely no idea who I will vote for now.

I won't vote for any party that is in favour of rights for transsexuals. Glad to see so many posters considering voting Tory. Time to teach the lefties a lesson.

Heartbroken to be unable to vote for Labour because of this issue. Would never vote Tory. Will have to spoil my ballot, I suppose.

interesting first post, aristaeus76!

i think if you read a bit you'll find most people on the feminist chat board are pro rights for transsexuals. its just they also care about upholding women's rights. nuanced, i know.

No, I will never vote Tory. It's an impossibility.

Spoiling the paper is pointless, no-one sees it really. Better to vote for some indy, or stand yourself. Maybe we need a crowd funder to pay the deposit for a load of indy non GRA candidates.

Aristaeus76 transsexuals are very different from the TRAs. Mumsnetters tend to be very supportive of transsexuals, as many just want to live their lives quietly and commit to being trans, by have all medical intervention, such as the full genital reassignment. We have some wonderful transsexuals who are very supportive of women’s rights and don’t want those eroded/abused by the aggressive TRAs. They freely admit that they are not women but living their lives as the closest they can be.

We are concerned about the push for self identification, which will mean women lose the rights to men free areas. It also means that we have no right to ask men to leave female only areas as they can ‘claim’ to be self identifying women.

Please read more of the Feminist pages as there are many issues.

Women on here have no issues with TIMs getting rights, but we don’t want those rights to be at the expense of women’s safety and achievements.

Anyway, it's the Tory party who have proposed the GRA, so voting for them with regard to this issue would be pointless.

lucy I had hoped that they might just mention it in passing to sort of prepare the way/leave the door open (and other such metaphors) for a proper discussion. It seemed like the perfect opportunity to introduce the issue and I was really angry that they didn't. I can see why they're wary of discussing it properly and openly - we all know the difficulties and risks involved - but to wilfully ignore it seems totally cowardly and actively disingenuous.

aristaeus76 I'm another poster who is very much in favour of supporting transsexuals, but actively against introducing gender self-identification. An important distinction to be made.

But it's more than just self identification. A man who has had the whole surgery and hormone course to get rid of his penis and grow breasts is still a man.

I've not seen any posts on here that state that previous labour voters are going to vote conservative.

But I question the notion that transexuals aren't part of TRA.

Aristaeus76, yes he may still be a man but I don't feel that's any of my business. Please have a read through the threads, you'll find that the problem is self id and #nodebate, certainly not transsexuals.