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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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7
DarthArts · 08/03/2018 15:41

Anyone know what the SNP's position is on Self ID?

DNAnotGRA · 08/03/2018 15:42

Born to a Northern working class mining family, it would seem a natural conclusion to vote Labour, however as the old adage suggests - if you are not a socialist at 20 you do not have a heart, if you are not a conservative at 40 you do not have a brain. I have voted conservative for the last 18 years since turning 40 and have a very well developed brain even though it has been damaged through a couple of strokes. I do not regret my decision to support our government even though there are several policies I personally disagree with but then again no party can ever fulfil everyones dreams for the perfect fit when it comes to political representation. Having moved from a Labour stronghold in South Yorkshire where my local MP was totally in favour of the "transwomen are women" mantra - that is until I explained biology to him to now residing in North Yorkshire Tory stronghold I can say that my new MP has much more about him than any Labour MP I have personally dealt with and thankfully doesn't buy into the BS.

Ritzsaltedcrackers · 08/03/2018 16:44

The SNP is very pro self ID and will shortly introduce self ID IN Scotland.

VaguelyAware · 08/03/2018 17:20

Can anyone summarise the Telegraph article? As I can't access it.

DarthArts · 08/03/2018 18:32

Telegraph Article:

Tom Harris
8 MARCH 2018 • 1:06 PM
An International Women’s Day confession: I didn’t support All-Women Shortlists (AWSs) when Labour first introduced them under the leadership of John Smith. I believed them to be undemocratic and unfair. And then I had a conversation with the wonderful Lorna Fitzsimons, the then Labour MP for Rochdale.

We were sitting in the Commons tea room while, just along the corridor, in the main chamber, the legislation making AWSs legal was being debated. There would be no vote, because by then any opposition in principle had been rebranded as misogyny. Parliamentary careers have been lost for much less. So the many colleagues who I knew shared my reservations did what I did: said nothing and waited for the whips to tell us when we could go home.

But Lorna that night just about changed my mind, or at least gave me new perspectives on the issue. She didn’t berate me for my views, she simply asked me to explain them. Then she offered her own arguments, the most powerful of which – and this was one I had not previously considered – was that where a “favoured son” in a local party was known to be excluded from standing as a candidate, then talented, able women who otherwise might not have considered standing would throw their hats in the ring. It was less about excluding men than broadening the potential talent pool.

And so it has proved, despite my reservations. So many female Labour MPs have put their male colleagues to shame with their contributions to public life since an AWS illuminated their paths to the green benches of the Commons.

So if I wasn’t a full convert, I could at least appreciate anew the opposing argument’s strengths.

It’s tempting to conclude that Labour is embarking on a new national conversation, this time about whether or not trans women – particularly those who remain male in all biological senses but who self-identify as women – should be allowed to stand as a candidate in seats reserved exclusively for women. But such a debate is not taking place. At all.

Women who oppose all-women shortlists walk on Bournemouth sea front at the Lib Dem party conference, 2001
Women who oppose all-women shortlists walk on Bournemouth sea front at the Lib Dem party conference, 2001 CREDIT: BRIAN SMITH
The rules have certainly changed, but the battle was won without a single shot being fired. Those who oppose this change have been told to shut up.

They have been abused, sometimes physically. They have been called names. Some have even been suspended from the Labour Party for expressing a view that is surely shared by much of the populace, namely that someone who still possesses every physical attribute of a man cannot, in any real sense, be described as a woman, however strongly she may feel that to be the case.

Having secured, after much difficulty and conflict, a historically high level of representation in the Commons, cisgender women are being told that someone who has lived most of her life as a man, with all the associated privilege such an existence bestows, who still has ownership and use of the male genitalia with which she was born, is as much a woman as someone who was born female, who has lived as a female and who has suffered for being a female.

And they are not being asked their views. They are being told that this is right and that if they disagree, they are wrong. The arrogance is astonishing and it is unacceptable.

The silence from many woman who will be affected by this rule change might lead us to believe that it has the whole-hearted support of Labour women. Maybe it does. It certainly has the support of columnist and Corbyn enthusiast Owen Jones, who tweeted gleefully yesterday that “anti-trans activists” had “overplayed their hands so much, they made Labour more pro-trans rights”. Oh, how the tears and anguish of those silly feminists with their years of campaigning for women’s rights must have delighted Owen in his triumph!

Labour cannot even accept that allowing trans women to stand on all-women shortlists is a controversial step. It may turn out to be the right one, just as the introduction of AWSs in the first place were controversial but, in the end, the right policy. But the party won’t even allow doubt to be expressed. If you oppose it, you’re wrong, you’re a bigot, you’re transphobic and you don’t belong in the Labour Party.

Yet of ourse it’s controversial – how could it possibly be anything else? And many, many women, both inside and outside the Labour Party are angry because they see a hard-won concession being compromised and devalued.

If I still opposed AWSs, I might support allowing trans women making use of them – all the better to undermine the very principle that underpins them and – who knows? – it might even lead to legal action that forces the party to abandon them altogether.

But that would be a shame: AWSs have done good and they will do more good before they are no longer needed. Trans women, if they wish to, should stand for parliament, just like everyone else, no one is preventing that. But they don’t need to use all-women shortlists to do so.

Somersetter · 08/03/2018 18:59

I just joined this thread to post a link to the Telegraph article but see someone has beaten me to it.

I could not agree more with this bit:

women are being told that someone who has lived most of her life as a man, with all the associated privilege such an existence bestows, who still has ownership and use of the male genitalia with which she was born, is as much a woman as someone who was born female, who has lived as a female and who has suffered for being a female.

And they are not being asked their views. They are being told that this is right and that if they disagree, they are wrong. The arrogance is astonishing and it is unacceptable.

LizzieSiddal · 08/03/2018 19:10

Me too Somer. It sums up the whole issue.

AngryAttackKittens · 08/03/2018 20:03

It's sad that we have to rely on the Telegraph to report fairly on what's happening in the Labour party. It's a good article, my main concern is that it won't reach Labour voters since they won't read it (experience with my own family suggests that anything in the "wrong" paper will be dismissed out of hand as nonsense, and I suspect that the same dynamic is at play on the right too, not that the Guardian is likely to write anything worth reading on this issue any time soon).

lucydogz · 08/03/2018 20:50

an interesting article in the Guardian from today (or perhaps on the twitter feed for tomorrow's edition) on this saying, as far as I can tell, that we should all pull together as women with other disadvantaged groups.
[[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/08/vaginas-far-right-progressives-identity-politics?CMP=soc_3156
The far right hates vaginas. Why doesn’t this anger the left more? ]]

woman11017 · 08/03/2018 20:58

@DrRadfem
I asked a question tonight about the silencing of women at #IWDLewisham #IWD2018 #WomensDay

Yes and two women spoke in support after and nobody against. The tide is turning, sisters 🌊

I don't know how to post the film, but excellent question, no film of answer yet.

Deservedly, she got a round of applause.

TooManyMiles · 08/03/2018 22:55

I have just read the article and am glad it was written but feel frustrated by this phrase below because he writes 'cis women' rather than 'women' or 'biological women' which makes the whole idea of 'cis' seem standardised which I cannot stand.
"Having secured, after much difficulty and conflict, a historically high level of representation in the Commons, cisgender women"

terfing · 08/03/2018 23:09

The announcement delay is interesting because it seems to have been a last-minute decision. What changed? Confused

Somersetter · 08/03/2018 23:10

I deliberately omitted "cisgender" from the start of my quote as I felt it undermined the tone.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2018 07:42

The whole problem seems to have arisen after asked women whether they support trans rights. Majority said yes.

But this is where you have to be careful about oversimplifying.

I'd hazard that if you asked them to define who was trans they'd give a different answer to the Labour party. Thats a bloody big mistake to make if you are Labour.

When properly informed, women are going, hand on a second, thats not trans rights. Thats mens rights.

Women do support trans rights but they also dare to identify the concept of women on their own terms and have rights too.

Stuck in your echo chamber refusing to listen to that isnt a good look for any political party.

Popchyk · 09/03/2018 09:21

You just need to think about what has actually happened so far.

Women in the Labour Party have had to give up spaces reserved for women in favour of transgender people. Heather Peto, for example, has been on two different AWS, has stood for Parliament and has a place on the Jo Cox Women in Leadership Programme. I'm guessing there are very few biological women in the Labour Party who have managed to do all that.

Men in the Labour Party, on the other hand, have not given up even one tiny thing (there are no transmen who have been given positions of responsibility in the Labour Party).

This isn't about equality for transgender people, otherwise we'd be seeing similar numbers of transmen being chosen to stand for Parliament and the like.

Look at what has actually happened.

Men (and only men) being given positions of power.

Men (and only men) being free from having to accommodate transgender people.

Where is the equality in that?

SirVixofVixHall · 09/03/2018 15:28

I'm another woman who has no idea who i will vote for now. Can't vote green (non-men ffs) . Won't vote Labour ever again. The misogyny, the horrible dismissal of women by men like Owen Jones on Twitter. The anti-semitism too. All really vile. My general politics are not Conservative and I've never voted for them, but I've reached the point where I would vote for them, if they were talking sense on this and supporting women. I don't know how Plaid stand on this (I live in Wales). I'm going to find out. The obvious choice for me would be the greens but nope. Where do the Lib Dems stand on this? What does Jess Phillips think? She seems pragmatic, and she's certainly clever and does some good work for women.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 11/03/2018 19:30

yes the Conservative started it, but they have gone veeeery quiet now and I think they're on the brink of canning it - let's face it, Corbyn has hitched his wagon to the trans cause now so they can't suddenly go trailing after him.

I am starting to wonder if this was a plan. Tories start the ball rolling knowing full well the majority of the public will find it batshit. They know Labour will attach themselves to it in the name of 'inclusiveness'. Then Tories back off, leave labour flailing losing support left right and centre and without any realistic prospect of ditching it without huge backlash. Tories sit and laugh.

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2018 19:36

The yougov 'don't knows' for women clocked in at 23% this week.

Its been running at 20% or less since the first week in January when it was 22%. And the one in January was an outlier. I went back to October and every other one was constantly 20% or under.

This weeks one could be another outlier. But it may not be.

This is the figure to watch atm, not the % for Con / Labour or the headline figures.

I raised a half an eyebrow at it...

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 11/03/2018 21:30

Just seen on news that Debbie Abrahams has been forced to step aside whilst she is investigated for bullying - she has strenuously denied & said that she has been horrifically bullied by people from the leaders office over the last few months, and that she's considering legal action.

Does anyone know anything more on this?

(I'm inclined to believe her over them tbh, Corbyn's team aren't a very nice bunch).

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2018 21:43

That google doc link:

As reported by the mainstream media "A radical feminist group in Labour is threatening to leave, after the party announced it would be backing trans people standing on women-only shortlists."
www.rt.com/uk/420739-transgender-labour-feminist-walkout/

THEY USED A RUSSIA TODAY NEW ARTICLE.

Datun · 11/03/2018 22:07

Yeah, you know what. It doesn't matter if a million women sign a trans support letter.

The freedom of speech part is what matters.

Because, once women can talk, the genie is out of the bottle.

As soon as the general public start googling #transgirls, autogynephilia, terfisaslur, transing kids and the cotton ceiling, that genie will not be going back.

The trans lobby have got nothing left in their arsenal.

They have done a real number on marketing their cause. But that is all they have. Smoke and mirrors.

Whilst everyone swallows the PR of victimhood, harmlessness, stunning and brave journeys, the hitching to the LGB wagon, suicide stats, and the brain sex nonsense, support is unsurprising.

Fortunately, none of these arguments bear the slightest scrutiny.

Which is why every single time another person increases their information on this subject, they get it immediately.

There is just too big a body of evidence.

Going after the censorship gangsters is all that is needed.

Most people, despite what they think of trans, still have a real problem with the shutting down of debate to this manic degree.

#nodebate is the Achilles heel.

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2018 22:53

Going after free speak will rattle the cage of people like the Freedom Association Datun. They are (generally) right wing libertarians who are particularly concerned with free speech (Generally UKIP and Cons though there is a fair overlap with the political beliefs of some - but not all - Liberal Democrats).

They are also generally extremely wealthy and by nature despise the far left with a passion. These are the type of people who would stand to make money from big pharma, but for the most part they are already loaded and they also have political considerations which I think will come first, because they fear the current demographics.

#NoDebate and whats going on at Bristol University, will rattle their cages. So if its not already on the radar, trans will be soon, if this continues

They already want to see reform of libel law in the UK and believe that the use of superinjunctions and defamation law effectively acts as a limit on free speech and have set up Freedom Association Societies at a number of universities.

They are not generally the friends of feminists (one of the current council is the deeply unpleasant Phillip Davies - and there are plenty of other unpleasant faces on it) but i suspect there is a common cause here.

Given the other noises coming out of Corbyn's mouth, they'll only be too happy to put money in put the boot in.

To my knowledge David T C Davies isn't a member (though he could well be) but this is very much the angle he comes from in his Terfdom.

The right wing media share a lot of their values. This is why its getting oxygen. It will get a lot more, I'm sure especially since there does seem to be a lot of potential click baity revenue generating material available in relation to the subject. It lends itself to sensationalism in a big way.

Whether this will connect with younger demographics is another matter. This is precisely why Bergdorf blamed the right wing and not feminists... they know where the money is going to come from.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/03/2018 00:23

It's kind of funny, this whole time they've been blaming all resistance on feminists and assuming that as long as they can shut us up they're home free. They have no idea what's on the horizon if libertarians decide that this is a free speech issue.

And libertarians will be a lot less kind in how they speak about trans people than feminists have been, and a lot less concerned about protecting their rights too.