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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?


  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.


  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.


  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos


So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!
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SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 20:43

drspouse...but parents wont know to request seperate accomodation, because they wont have been told that there is a boy on the trip

Plus, why should a girl have to sleep separately to accomodate a boys wishes? Half the fun is sharing with a group of girls.

My dd definitely would be upset if she was to discover the girl she wad shsrinv with, was infact a boy. What will happen in this scenario? Will she be sent home? What if nkne of the girls want to share a bedroom with the boy? Will they all be sent home? They cant separate the boy, because that would be transphobic. I have been adking GG HQ WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THIS SITUATION...they just give vagueries about 'risk assessments' and protecting privacy for trans people. They give no consideration to making sure that the GIRLS feel safe and comfortable

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DanaBarrett · 05/03/2018 20:45

I’m a leader in training. I have my safeguarding course soon, which should be fun. I know that others have raised this and been brushed off by both GG and NSPCC. The girls have literally no-one advocating for them. It’s frightening.

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Aftershock15 · 05/03/2018 20:46

I used to be a brownie leader, but gave up when my own children (all boys!) were young. I had intended to return to guiding now the youngest is at secondary school and can be left on his own for evening meetings (as I couldn’t rely / expect his older brothers to always be home for him). I even knew of a brownie pack that was desperate for leaders. Then I heard about this ridiculous ruling and decided not to go back.

It’s interestng that the reply from GG was that it had always been a single gender organisation. When I was young it was a single sex organisation.

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ChampiontheWonderHamster · 05/03/2018 20:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

drspouse · 05/03/2018 20:47

Champion see my other thread. It says MEMBERS have the right.

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MorbidMuch · 05/03/2018 20:48

The irony is that GGUK is still committed to breaking gender stereotypes whilst simultaneously reinforcing them with the idea of gender feelings.

Here is a video that introduces their new resource. It's mostly very sensible and I like the sound of it for my guides, except when she ties herself in knots towards the second part with this double definition of gender at 5:38. She does clearly outline the difference to sex, though.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=67TpSPBRNQs&feature=youtu.be

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SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 20:48

mrsbodger can you imagine a teenaged girl having to go to a TIM leader for sanitary towels and painkillers; because she has started her petiod and flooded her clothes and bedding with petiod a blood. A guy who looks like a guy in a cardi and a wig. And the girls just have to pretend they dont know its a man and suppress their discomfort and embarrassment and take him their bloody pants and bed sheets. What happened to single sex chapetone adpect of safeguarding? And teaching girls to set their own boundaries?

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drspouse · 05/03/2018 20:57

If you are a Guider message me for an invite - I've started a group.

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Mumsnut · 05/03/2018 21:01

Agnes - please post this in AIBU to reach a wider audience. (The posters and lurkers on Feminism Chat are by and large clued up on this stuff. It is a vast black hole to the rest of the site, I reckon.)

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ChampiontheWonderHamster · 05/03/2018 21:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

loveyouradvice · 05/03/2018 21:06

I find your post both terrifying and deeply compassionate and accurate....

Terrifying because you are being given no guidance about how to risk assess.... and surely this has to under pin everything?

Compassionate because you are trying to look after everyone in your care, including children who are unclear about their gender identity

Accurate as yes, I would have been one of those mums with a 10y DD who would not have allowed her to go off on camp with mixed group like this.... she is older now... but no way would I have thought it appropriate or inclusive of the GG to do this. As you say, you are excluding many girls, and probably those who most need the GG..... and I suggest that if the GG did an impact assessment they would discover that more girls would be excluded by introducing this as policy (which they appear to have done with no debate, like so many organisations) that would be included (i.e. the gender confused).... Surely they need to look at this, as well as risk assess? They are prioritising one group over another without explaining why.

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loveyouradvice · 05/03/2018 21:07

What also really worries me is that I think the Guides have grown into an enormously progressive and inspiring organisation for girls to be part of ... hugely empowering....

And at the same time they like others struggle to find good volunteers to lead.... surely this will put off others from volunteering as Leaders?

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namechangedasimaguider · 05/03/2018 21:18

Ok. As the nn suggests, I'm a guider, currently involved with guides (10 -14) and Senior Section (Rangers, currently 14-25, but changing to 14-18 at the end of next year).
I and the other leaders who I have spoken to are horrified by this change. I am not sure what we would do if a trans girl joined, in our area (village) there would undoubtedly be known by all the girls as trans. We use large patrol tunnel tents, with inner tent bedrooms that sleep 4/5 girls at each end. The leaders have their own tent, with separate inner tents, some share with another leader (I share with my adult dd who is also a leader) or with their younger children or on their own as they prefer.
The campsites we stay on have single sex toilets and showers, all in individual cubicles.
On indoor holidays the girls sleep in a dormitory type accommodation and leaders share a single bedroom. There are toilets and showers for girls, and separate ones for leaders. In our local guide owned houses, there are no separate facilities for males, in the event a male is there, they are supposed to use the leaders loo (small room with full height door).

It is not normal for leaders to sleep in with the girls, I thought it was forbidden unless it was a sleepover in a hall, where everyone sleeps in the same large room. We have done this, and the 3 leaders set up "camp" in a corner away from the children. I will check the rules and report back.
Guiding has always been single sex, "for girls". The wording was changed to "single gender" sometime at the beginning of 2017.

I have tried to discuss this on a guide leaders fb group and was cried down and called a "terf " and a bigot- my posts were removed.

I have a great deal of sympathy for anyone who feels so unhappy with their body that they feel they have to "change gender", but I have a duty of care to all the girls in the group.

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drspouse · 05/03/2018 21:24

@namechangedasimaguider please do PM me.

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namechangedasimaguider · 05/03/2018 21:25

Incidentally we had a Ranger weekend away recently (the girls were 17-19).
As the young women arrived (they drove themselves and car shared) they were vigorously discussing trans women. They had been talking to another of their friends who saw no harm in a trans girl who they all knew joining, they said it would make them feel uncomfortable, they wouldn't want to share the showers or bedrooms and that the "atmosphere " and dynamic would change: they wouldn't be able to act the same way, however "nice" the transgirl was.

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AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 21:31

Hello everyone. I wasn't expecting so many responses! I've just got home so will start reading and responding ASAP.

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TruScum · 05/03/2018 21:33

I’m finding this thread particularly chilling.

All I can say is that, as far as I’m concerned, I would be extremely wary of any man/boy attempting to get access to the guides.

The most innocent thing it can ever be is men selfishly taking validation for themselves from women and girls by invading their spaces.

What man in their right mind, trans or not, would feel any desire or right to encroach on this important society which is very obviously for women/girls.

I just don’t understand why and fear any one who did would have ulterior motives.

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poshme · 05/03/2018 21:37

Truscum I just wanted to say- I have seen several of you VERY sensible posts recently.
Thank you for being a reasonable voice in a tricky debate. I hoe you keep posting as it is so important to have voices from lots of viewpoints.

As for the guiding thing- I'm involved in youth work involving staying away. We have super strict guidelines about segregated spaces by sex. I find it almost unbelievable that the guides have this new guidance. It's so open to abuse & difficulty.

Thank you to all you guiding leaders- my 2 girls are brownies & love it. Thank you for your care & consideration. Please don't stop fighting.

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PositivelyPERF · 05/03/2018 21:38

namechangedasimaguider that’s very refreshing to read that about young women. I really think you’re in a very good position to gently introduce critical thinking.

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Owlil · 05/03/2018 21:40

I'm a guider and have been for a looong time. I also support inclusion as a volunteer- in the past this was around applying for grants for girls who needed carers to attend events, supporting leaders around adapting the program but now at least 50% of enquiries are units and areas with questions about trans members - mostly adults but a few children too. I'm thinking if resigning from my inclusion role and potentially guiding entirely as I can't manage my belief in guiding in a single sex space and the current guidelines. It's just a matter of time till it goes wrong and I don't want to be in the firing line when it does.

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drspouse · 05/03/2018 21:42

@Owlil would also love to add you to my group...

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Owlil · 05/03/2018 21:52

Thankyou
I've shared rooms with adult leaders on courses etc and always felt safe and comfortable- I think I'd just turn around and leave if asked to share with an TIM adult so why should I ask the girls to do something I wouldn't?

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SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 21:57

Agreeing with the poster we said this is extra sad as GG is v feminist organisation, doing great work with girls all over the world, giving them a chance to relax and enjoy things in single sex environment, away from the sexist pressures of outside. Their work around sexual harassment in schools for eg was really powerful.

But the men and boys want in and they aren't going to deny them, it's just really sad all these orgs are folding without a fight, putting out the welcome mat.

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AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:00

@Datun GG do loads of risk assessments for residentials - every activity has to have one. GGUK are generally really good at this. But this matter has been completely overlooked. There is no guidance from GGHQ in how to properly risk assess what is effectively mixed sex accommodation. I was just told that GG is a single gender organisation.

When I wrote to GGUK (including all the numbered points above plus others) they completely ignored my specific question about how guiders are supposed to risk assess this.

Guides generally share tents in patrols. Patrols are a mix of older and younger Guides - the age range is 10-14. So perfectly possible for a 10yo girl to be sharing with a 14 yo boy who IDs as a girl.

I also asked GGUK whether they believed a person with a penis sharing accommodation was with a person with a vagina was materially different to two girls sharing and that sexual activity - consensual or otherwise was a possibility. No answer from GGUK.

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AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:02

@Lemonjello I explicitly asked GGUK why aren't we following the NSPCC guidance. They ignored the question. I received a template response focussing on GG being a single gender organisation.

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