My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?


  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.


  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.


  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos


So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!
OP posts:
Report
SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:03

Well realistically sexual activity between two 14 year old girls is perfectly possible, the difference being risk of pregnancy, a consequence of that pesky biology that TAs are so keen to convince us is all in our imaginations.

Report
SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:04

There is also the point about boys exposure to porn and what that means around this, probably a different conversation though.

Maybe GG think most TIMs are not attracted to girls?

Report
SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:05

As in they see them as gay boys. I can't imagine they literally think they are female, the rest of their work seems to indicate they know the difference.

Report
ILoveDolly · 05/03/2018 22:06

My dd is a guide and goes to a single sex school by choice. I'm pretty sure she would let me know as soon as a TIM guide started but also genuinely I find it hard to believe that they would be welcomed by the other girls. Guides is a bit of a haven away from grotty boys in Y6 and 7 and it would change the dynamics to have a trans girl attend.

Report
AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:07

@LangCleg

WTF are the Guides going to do when the first tween comes home from camp pregnant?

I mean, at that point, who's going to care that a pair of kids are going BUT WE'RE LESBIANS?

I was only a lovely guiders Facebook page discussion about the new policy. Any questioning of the policy was shut down. I was so shocked I took screenshots. One leader said that "some penises are female. They aren't boys who feel female they are girls in what we call a male body"

OP posts:
Report
AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:10

@SemaMjinga is correct. Leaders cannot disclose that a trans person is present. If a parent asks us we have to refer them to county commissioner.

I don't dispute that a transchild has every right to privacy. They should certainly not be subject to gossip. we have to find a sensitive way of dealing with this because the other girls have a right to privacy too

OP posts:
Report
drspouse · 05/03/2018 22:11

Agnes my reading is that the other members are also entitled to their own spaces. I'd be asking the other members what they wanted too.

Report
AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:17

@UpstartCrow

Thank you for confirming that Leaders stay in the tent with the children. On other threads people have insisted that is not the case.

I think it may be illegal to out people as being trans, if they have a GRC. That may be why the GG say they won't discuss a trans persons identity with the parents - but that would only apply to Leaders who have transitioned, as children cannot obtain a GRC.

I have never seen an adult share a tent (although there is nothing preventing it) but adult leaders do sleep in the same hall/guide hut with Brownies and rainbows. I have done so myself many times. There should always be 2 adults present and we normally stay in one corner and try to put some sort of screen between us (craft tables for us) to keep some separation. We did this at my last rainbow sleepover. The adult used the male toilets in the church hall and the girls used the ladies.

Doesn't stop anxious rainbows coming to you in the middle of the night if they can't sleep.

I understand it is illegal to out an adult with a GRC. I'd like to think that any Transwoman who wants to be a guider would be sensitive enough to disclose it themselves to reassure parents and put measures in place. I'm not convinced they all will though.

OP posts:
Report
steppemum · 05/03/2018 22:18

my daughter is a scout. They have very clear policies on accommodation, no sharing of boys and girls. It isn't an issue, one unit, 2 bedrooms/tents. It is actually pretty straightforward.

If my daughter was a guide, and the guider could not answer the question - will she be sharing with only girls, ie biological girls? Then I would not be sending her away on the residential trip.
The guidance is nonsense. The only solution is to say that on residential trips there will be separate accommodation for the trans kids. Nothing else conforms to safeguarding guidance.

It makes me sad that the glaringly obvious, ie teenage boys and girls sharing is a bad idea - is lost under the desire to be PC.

What has happened to common sense in this country!

Report
SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 22:20

owli do you mean most of your enquiries are about adult TIMS wanting to become Guiding leaders?

Report
SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:20

I don't think an adult shares?

Our guide trips they go to a place with dorm type things for 4/6/8 etc girls, the leaders are in their own room.

Report
fuckoffsnow · 05/03/2018 22:21

My time in the Brownies and Guides were some of the happiest in my childhood. I did my ALQ while at uni. One of the first things I thought about when I found out DC would be a girl was "I hope she wants to join Rainbows when she's old enough". If this is still their policy in 2 years, she won't be going. I'd be more comfortable with the Scouts policy, until they also decide that girls don't have the right to know they're bunking with boys.

Report
AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:21

@drspouse

Do you know any other Guide leaders that agree with you? There must a quite a few here on Mumsnet.

I don't know any other leaders IRL who feel like me. No one speaks out publicly for fear of being kicked out, or labelled transphobic, or they believe what GG tell them about penises being female. Part of my motivation for posting this was to find others who share my concerns with the protection of being anonymous.

OP posts:
Report
drspouse · 05/03/2018 22:23

Leaders CAN share if they are female.
Our Rainbow leaders shared a tent with their girls in our joint camp (they were in the glamping one with beds).
I've slept in an alcove off a girl bedroom.
Safeguarding says never be alone with one girl however.

Report
drspouse · 05/03/2018 22:24

@AgnesBadenPowell I guessed that one friend did, and I was correct.

Report
Lemonjello · 05/03/2018 22:24

When I suggested you inform the parents of this I meant the policy in general.

That is surely not against the rules as it is in the public domain anyway.

I don’t know how GG works at all but could you ask parents to stay behind at the end and highlight this policy to them, acknowledging that some of them may not be comfortable with their daughters sharing with male bodied young people, but this is policy now and you are not permitted by GG to inform them of any mixed sex sharing?

Report
AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:25

@Aftershock15

It’s interestng that the reply from GG was that it had always been a single gender organisation. When I was young it was a single sex organisation.

It always** was single sex. GG are rewriting history. The movement started because people of the female sex were not allowed to join Scouts.

OP posts:
Report
littlestgirlguide25 · 05/03/2018 22:26

I am guider and have camped many many times with my Guides.

Leaders do not share tents with Guides. No person aged 18+ is allowed to share with anyone under 18 (this has caused problems when the group is Rangers, who are aged 14-25, and the friendship groups are year 12s aged 17/18).

Leaders MAY share a tent in a separate bedroom (big tents with several rooms) but in my experience prefer not to. We like our own space!

On indoor holidays the Guides share dormitories or bedrooms, leaders share rooms together.

A Guide/Ranger aged 10-16 could be asked to share with a trans girl in that age range and the leaders would not be allowed to tell the girl or the parents.

A leader could be asked to share with a trans woman.

Guide houses don't have unlimited bedrooms. We can't provide separate rooms for everyone who asks for one. Undoubtedly the result is that bio girls and leaders who are uncomfortable with the idea will just not go.

Report
SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 22:26

Ok, this is the first reply i got from GG HQ when i asked (i am a parent, not a guider);

Dear Xxxxxx,

Thank you for your email.

Girlguiding has always been a single gender organisation and is committed to ensuring that girls and young women are given a space to challenge gender stereotypes.

When we use the term ‘gender identity’ in guiding we are referring to a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman. We consider this to be separate to the biological definition of sex – being male or female.

We cannot disclose to you if there is a trans child in your daughter’s Rainbow unit and we will not be able to disclose this to you in the future.

This is a requirement that safeguards the trans person who is very vulnerable, and open to discrimination and abuse.

If you are uncomfortable about your daughter potentially sharing accommodation with a trans child, you can discuss this with their Leader who will be supported by us to manage this discretely and sensitively.

However, in accordance with our policy, they will not be able to tell you if there is a trans child in the unit without the permission of that child and their parents.

At Girlguiding we take safeguarding very seriously. All of our adult volunteers, of any gender, are DBS checked and our volunteers attend safeguarding training. Any safeguarding concerns would be managed through our safeguarding policies and processes available here:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/safety-and-safeguarding-policy/

Girlguiding is an inclusive organisation and is committed to being open and providing equality of opportunity for all girls and young women.
We do not make decisions based on presumptions of what people from different cultures may or may not think about any aspect of guiding, the principles it upholds or its policies.
Decisions are based on giving any girl who wishes to attend guiding the option to be part of our wonderful charity. We are open to all girls from all backgrounds and always have been. If this means that some people are not interested in joining Girlguiding, that is their choice.
Excluding groups of girls gives no one any choice and is not what Girlguiding stands for. We are for all girls, from all walks of life and we will continue to open our doors to anyone based on that principle.

I hope that this answers you query

Best wishes

Xxxx Xxxxxxx

Inclusion Project Coordinator

Membership Recruitment & Retention

Report
scrappydappydoo · 05/03/2018 22:28

Following with interest - can I as a parent put on every one of my dds camp forms that I do not want them to share with biological males. Therefore circumnavigating the need for the leaders to disclose information to me but also ensuring my dds right to a single sex space?

Report
AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:29

@MorbidMuch

The irony is that GGUK is still committed to breaking gender stereotypes whilst simultaneously reinforcing them with the idea of gender feelings.

I raised this very point in my letter to GGHQ. This is what I said:

The Girls’ Attitudes Survey 2017 highlights “how girls and young women face relentless pressure from seeing and hearing gender stereotypes on a daily basis, with girls as young as seven saying these stereotypes affect their ability to say what they think” (https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/gender-stereotypes-impacting-behaviour-of-girls-as-young-as-seven/) .

I therefore ask you to advise how Girlguiding UK will reconcile gender self-identification with its stated intention of standing up to gender stereotypes, which Sophie Wallace (a member of the Girlguiding Advocate Panel) said “aren’t just harmful, but a barrier to progress”.

No answer, just a pithy statement about always working to breakdown stereotypes Hmm

OP posts:
Report
SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 22:34

How do you think that would play out though scrappy?

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:35

The other point about inclusion is that the possibility of having to undress/ bunk in with etc a boy excludes many groups of girls for cultural/ religious reasons which goes against their own inclusion policy is have thought? Plus all the families/ girls who don't want to do that because they just don't, culture/ religion aside.

Although it is a cultural norm in the UK not to get undressed etc in front of opposite sex over a certain age isn't it, so ????

Report
LangCleg · 05/03/2018 22:36

I also asked GGUK whether they believed a person with a penis sharing accommodation was with a person with a vagina was materially different to two girls sharing and that sexual activity - consensual or otherwise was a possibility. No answer from GGUK.

I honestly cannot believe what I am reading, AgnesBadenPowell.

This is not an identity issue! This is safe guarding the sexual health of minors issue! It doesn't matter what these kids believe their inner identity is. They're kids! You can't put one capable of insemination in with one capable of conception!

It's got nothing to do with transphobia.

Report
SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:36

So for the older ones you could have A 14 yo girl in with a 17 yo boy.

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.