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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?


  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.


  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.


  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos


So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!
OP posts:
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Boxesandbuttons · 05/03/2018 20:13

otter do you have a link to beavers policies?

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drspouse · 05/03/2018 20:13

They have been brainwashed by Gendered Intelligence, but they also have a v large number of lesbian members who may a) not realise what this all implies and b) be remembering discrimination they have experienced so are trying to reach out for others.

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Boxesandbuttons · 05/03/2018 20:14

How do DBS checks work for trans people with a GRC?

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Boxesandbuttons · 05/03/2018 20:14

Or even without?

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drspouse · 05/03/2018 20:14

I'll be pushing back against GG and also bending rules.

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PositivelyPERF · 05/03/2018 20:15

What if a parent puts in writing that they do not permit their child to share sleeping or bathing accommodation with a child of the opposite ‘biological sex’? Are GGs going to be deceitful? Are they going to go against the parent’s wishes? Children aren’t stupid. They recognise a child of the opposite sex, so how are GG leaders going to defend their actions when little Jenny tells her parents that boy was in her room? Are they going to bully children into the trans narrative?

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Boxesandbuttons · 05/03/2018 20:16

This should also be a consideration for Scouts if they are taking on transboys.

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DoctorW · 05/03/2018 20:18

AgnesBadenPowell

Great to see this discussion here. I have been worried for a long time about how the Girl Guides are ignoring the obvious safeguarding issues regarding pregnancy and sexual assault.

Do you know any other Guide leaders that agree with you? There must a quite a few here on Mumsnet.

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drspouse · 05/03/2018 20:18

Boxes all names are included in a DBS.

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drspouse · 05/03/2018 20:20

I am also thinking of starting a FB group for gender critical Guiders.

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Sittinonthefloor · 05/03/2018 20:20

Basically I'm just hoping the situation never arises! Most of the guide people I know are very 'no nonsense' and absolutely committed to girls and giudes as a special place for them, I can't imagine how most would deal with it - resignation & unit closure I would imagine. I was wondering about dorms in youth hostels etc too.

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PositivelyPERF · 05/03/2018 20:20

A child will be abused and I hope the parents sue the fuck out of GGs. This isn’t hyperbole. Two of my children used to go to Boy Scouts and one of the leaders was sexually abusing some of the children. He went to jail, but thankfully my kids weren’t touched. If it happens in scouts, do people not think perverts will jump at the chance of becoming ‘TIM’ volunteers, to access young girls. Do they honestly believe that young boys who are confused won’t end up experimenting with girls?

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HermioneWeasley · 05/03/2018 20:24

The NSPCC was asked about the safeguarding implications of this and denied there were any.

I can’t believe how complicit or wilfully ignorant organisations that are supposed to put kids first are being.

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FencingFightingTorture35 · 05/03/2018 20:26

Yes to a child will be abused and/or get pregnant. GG haven't thought this through at all.

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Sittinonthefloor · 05/03/2018 20:28

Perhaps a bit of twitter action is needed?

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ConorMcGregorsChin · 05/03/2018 20:28

I'm in total support of you OP. As a Mum of a little girl of 6 who is currently in Rainbows, she's already quite apprehensive about sleepovers etc. I've asked to be DBS checked so I can help out and also be there.

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k2p2k2tog · 05/03/2018 20:28

My 12 year old is a Guide and has two camps coming up during the next few months.

She would not being going if there were boys attending.

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ChampiontheWonderHamster · 05/03/2018 20:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OlennasWimple · 05/03/2018 20:31

I shared a very small tent with a male and a female school friend when we were doing DofE expeditions. There was never any hint of anything untoward, partly because we were all completely knackered having been hiking over moor and mountain all day, but also because (I realise now) that the teachers were very canny with the sleeping allocations, and which of the four boys in the group was put in to share a tent with the two girls.

And - crucially - my parents knew about the arrangements, and both the other girl and I were given a chance to say whether we were happy or not with the plan to share a tent.

The GG policy appears to throw the issue of informed consent right out the window

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SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 20:32

There was a GG leader on here recently saying that she's just not going to do camps / overnight type stuff any more.

Seems like a pragmatic solution under the circs but what a bloody shame.

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PositivelyPERF · 05/03/2018 20:32

She would not being going if there were boys attending.
But you’re not going to know because they won’t tell you. I can see a lot of girl guides closing down as parents will want to protect their children. Any parent who risks the safety of their child to be seen as trans accepting should be ashamed.

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drspouse · 05/03/2018 20:35

I would be asking my girls if they are comfortable sharing with trans girls (see my other thread, this seems to be allowed).

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TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 05/03/2018 20:37

The NSPCC was asked about the safeguarding implications of this and denied there were any

WTF?

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LangCleg · 05/03/2018 20:39

What if your kid has a crush on the other kid? Kids get horny. They bonk their crushes if irresponsible adults give them half a chance. What if your kid comes home pregnant? What if your kid says BUT WE'RE LESBIANS AND CBBC TOLD US YOU COULD CHANGE SEX?

Guides have gone completely bonkers. This is ludicrous.

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SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 20:39

GG senior section is 14 - 25,

i don't know much about what they do, but if they do camp stuff

Then potentially a 14yo girl has to bunk in with a 24yo TIM?

Is that right does anyone know?

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