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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?


  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.


  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.


  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos


So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!
OP posts:
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drspouse · 20/03/2018 13:00

Mainly they haven't because nobody has told them this is policy.

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Italiangreyhound · 20/03/2018 08:09

As sex is a protected category under law and no child can have a GRC I don't see why all parents affected cannot complain to GG using sex as a protected category.

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BanyanTree · 19/03/2018 06:33

Even without the comments about this, he is still a stupid man.

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Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 18/03/2018 12:15

Interesting that Schofield considers this to be evidence we are less medieval now. Sex segregation is apparently medieval in all circumstances. What a stupid man.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/884658/Girl-Guides-let-transgender-members-shower-with-the-girls

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BanyanTree · 16/03/2018 06:32

It's no surprise that men aren't rushing around trying to find obscure bits of equality law to keep their toilets, locker rooms, kids' overnight accommodation as single sex. It doesn't occur to most men that laws, customs and protocols, are necessary for women and girls' safety, privacy and dignity.

We have something that men generally don't have. It's called FEAR. I have lots of chats with my DH about trans issues and I may as well be talking about some tribe in the middle of the Amazon that he has never heard of, nor cares about. He thinks it is never going to affect him and he's not bothered. Only when it affects them or their daughters will they care. Most men know they can defend themselves physically and so do not have the fear we have.

Women need to start voting with their feet. I don't have DD's but if and when things affect my DC I just vote with my feet. My DC will get over it. There are loads of others things for them to do.

Don't participate, don't engage and don't enable. We women need to stick together. Only a group of people standing together can stop a bully.

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Elletorro · 13/03/2018 20:58

So

I’ve done a bit more digging. You can definitely consult with your LADO in your LA about safeguarding concerns. I’d maybe ask them to check the policy on camps etc as that is the big issue.

The charity Commission oversees the whole thing and has the ability to refer concerns about safeguarding for investigation.

Their guidance on safeguarding fails to mention sex too which is very odd. However probably worth getting in touch anyway.

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averylongtimeago · 13/03/2018 15:21

www.girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/our-organisation/contact-us/

Link for anyone who would like to contact GGUK

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DoctorW · 13/03/2018 14:25

averylongtimeago
Can I ask that the parents who have read this thread and are now saying their daughters will not join guides to PLEASE write to or email gghq to tell them. If the only voices they hear are mermaids and their ilk, then they will be able to say their policy is what everyone wants.

If you are a parent of a brownie or guide and you feel really angry about this enough to speak out please dm me in confidence.

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MiaowTheCat · 12/03/2018 06:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

averylongtimeago · 11/03/2018 22:24

Can I ask that the parents who have read this thread and are now saying their daughters will not join guides to PLEASE write to or email gghq to tell them.
If the only voices they hear are mermaids and their ilk, then they will be able to say their policy is what everyone wants.

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Bumblebzz · 11/03/2018 22:24

As a leader, I would have expected you to step in at that point and refute the sexism in the story, and you could have done that without being in any way negative about the boy/girl at the centre of the story. I would have expected you to say “of course many (MANY) girls aren’t into pink/glitter stuff, and many boys are, and it’s perfectly fine to be a boy who likes pink glitter and a girl who doesn’t”. Perhaps you did intervene in which case I apologise for assuming you didn’t, based on your anecdote.

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Bumblebzz · 11/03/2018 22:19

On another thread recently we questioned why the story of the trans child was included in the book of rebel stories for girls. It mentioned pink/glitter/shoes as being evidence of being “female” (FFS) and the “achievement” was a boy accessing girls toilets. Now I hear the story was used to explain/normalise gender stereotyping in Girl Guides of all places...I thought GG was one organisation where liberation of girls and women from harmful gender stereotypes would be a given. Wow, my daughter will never join the GG now. Glad I read this thread.

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ALittleBitOfButter · 11/03/2018 22:18

If i recall correctly Lila wanted to dance and parade half naked in the changing room, and thought the girls were being transphobic by not performing like a porn lesbian steam room scene in front of him.

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ALittleBitOfButter · 11/03/2018 22:15

@ofclocksandkings "signposted towards mixed gender youth groups"

Why can't the trans identifying boys go to mixed gender youth groups too? Why must they be encouraged to enter spaces created for the benefit of the female sex?

Genuinely interested in your reply.

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TheMonstrousRegiment · 11/03/2018 22:03

Thanks @Datun. PM Sent.

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Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 11/03/2018 21:56
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Datun · 11/03/2018 21:50

TheMonstrousRegiment

Of course.

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Italiangreyhound · 11/03/2018 21:17

girls !

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Italiangreyhound · 11/03/2018 21:16

@ofclocksandkings

I know you want to be kind. I get it. But this is going backwards for gurus.

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thebewilderness · 11/03/2018 21:09

The girls who had known Lila Perry most of their lives walked out of school to protest the adults letting a known predator into the locker room with them. He was invited to the morning tv shows and the girls were not but they did finally convinced the school authorities that he was not who he said he was.

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MiaowTheCat · 11/03/2018 21:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

titchy · 11/03/2018 21:01

Ofclocks - this is another one of Lila
https://images.encyclopediadramatica.rs/b/bd/PerryPenis.gif

Senior section age and wanting to share with 14 yo girls? Is this ok in your unit?

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TheMonstrousRegiment · 11/03/2018 20:53

@Datun Can I PM you a question?

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StickStickStickStick · 11/03/2018 20:49

Girls brain?!?! Ffs.

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Datun · 11/03/2018 20:43

ofclocksandkings

I can see you are coming from a kind place. Many of us have been there.

But there is no reason why a boy identifying as a girl needs to go to the guides. He can go to the scouts. It's not necessary for him to choose the guides in order to be supported and enjoy that kind of experience.

What it is saying is that there is such a thing as girl's brain and a boy's brain and that is how we categorise the sexes. It's absolutely not true. There is no such thing as a girl's brain in a boy's body.

And, frankly, even if there is, they will still be male. Because biological sex is not a description of the way you think.

Lila Perry is a trans-girl who insisted on using the female facilities at school. They said all the girls agreed, except the ones who didn't, who were bigots.

They said they had a girl's brain in a boy's body. They said they were just like all the other girls. They suddenly felt right.

These are the two pictures. One at school, one afterwards.

There is a reason why we segregate by sex.

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides
Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides
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