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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?


  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.


  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.


  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos


So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!
OP posts:
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DoctorW · 13/03/2018 14:25

averylongtimeago
Can I ask that the parents who have read this thread and are now saying their daughters will not join guides to PLEASE write to or email gghq to tell them. If the only voices they hear are mermaids and their ilk, then they will be able to say their policy is what everyone wants.

If you are a parent of a brownie or guide and you feel really angry about this enough to speak out please dm me in confidence.

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averylongtimeago · 13/03/2018 15:21

www.girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/our-organisation/contact-us/

Link for anyone who would like to contact GGUK

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Elletorro · 13/03/2018 20:58

So

I’ve done a bit more digging. You can definitely consult with your LADO in your LA about safeguarding concerns. I’d maybe ask them to check the policy on camps etc as that is the big issue.

The charity Commission oversees the whole thing and has the ability to refer concerns about safeguarding for investigation.

Their guidance on safeguarding fails to mention sex too which is very odd. However probably worth getting in touch anyway.

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BanyanTree · 16/03/2018 06:32

It's no surprise that men aren't rushing around trying to find obscure bits of equality law to keep their toilets, locker rooms, kids' overnight accommodation as single sex. It doesn't occur to most men that laws, customs and protocols, are necessary for women and girls' safety, privacy and dignity.

We have something that men generally don't have. It's called FEAR. I have lots of chats with my DH about trans issues and I may as well be talking about some tribe in the middle of the Amazon that he has never heard of, nor cares about. He thinks it is never going to affect him and he's not bothered. Only when it affects them or their daughters will they care. Most men know they can defend themselves physically and so do not have the fear we have.

Women need to start voting with their feet. I don't have DD's but if and when things affect my DC I just vote with my feet. My DC will get over it. There are loads of others things for them to do.

Don't participate, don't engage and don't enable. We women need to stick together. Only a group of people standing together can stop a bully.

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Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 18/03/2018 12:15

Interesting that Schofield considers this to be evidence we are less medieval now. Sex segregation is apparently medieval in all circumstances. What a stupid man.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/884658/Girl-Guides-let-transgender-members-shower-with-the-girls

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BanyanTree · 19/03/2018 06:33

Even without the comments about this, he is still a stupid man.

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Italiangreyhound · 20/03/2018 08:09

As sex is a protected category under law and no child can have a GRC I don't see why all parents affected cannot complain to GG using sex as a protected category.

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drspouse · 20/03/2018 13:00

Mainly they haven't because nobody has told them this is policy.

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