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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?


  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.


  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.


  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos


So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!
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SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 22:40

snibble i raised that point. This is their response;

We do not make decisions based on presumptions of what people from different cultures may or may not think about any aspect of guiding, the principles it upholds or its policies

We are open to all girls from all backgrounds and always have been. If this means that some people are not interested in joining Girlguiding, that is their choice

(See my post above for their full reply)

They prioritise boys inclusion over girls of any culture which doesnt allow socialising/sharing accomodation with boys. They can just 'choose not to join'

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littlestgirlguide25 · 05/03/2018 22:40

Snibble, yes, theoretically. In practice it is likely their friendship groups are different though so they would not be together.

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nmg85 · 05/03/2018 22:45

As a rainbow and brownie leader I feel we are being put in an awkward position. I have no issues with anyone identifying as trans at all and see it as everyone's right to be who they want to be! However... the parents and the girls trust me to keep them safe and to be honest with them and if I can't do that then why would I put myself in that situation where I potentially have to lie / omit the truth and possibly put people in uncomfortable positions.

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scrappydappydoo · 05/03/2018 22:45

Sena - I honestly don't know. I'm really new to this whole debate. But I am concerned about it - I and my dds have massively benefitted from guides precisely because it was single sex. I want them to continue and go on camp. I disagree with this policy and can see it puts guiders in a really difficult position so I was trying to think of ways round the situation.

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AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:46

@littlestgirlguide25

Leaders do not share tents with Guides. No person aged 18+ is allowed to share with anyone under 18 (this has caused problems when the group is Rangers, who are aged 14-25, and the friendship groups are year 12s aged 17/18).

Leaders MAY share a tent in a separate bedroom (big tents with several rooms) but in my experience prefer not to. We like our own space!

I've never been a leader with Guides, only Brownies and Rainbows so I'll defer to you on sleeping arrangements at Guide camp. But leaders DO sleep in the same room as Brownies and Rainbows - in most locations there is no other option.

And as you say, most facilities don't have enough rooms for everyone to have their own private bedroom.

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WooWooSister · 05/03/2018 22:49

I'm so disappointed with them. I contacted HQ over a year ago about this.
It seems they're now gaslighting people by saying GG was always single gender. It wasn't. It was always single sex. Their members, parents and leaders know it was single sex.
I'm guessing all the gender nonsense is funding related. But they should have been honest about being pushed to make this change.
Either they are being duplicitous about it because they know their membership would plummet. Or they think everyone in an unit would know who was trans and react accordingly.

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SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 22:50

The problem is that the GG believe that gender self-identification LITERALLY changes the individual boy into an actual girl. Which is why, they dont recognise any safeguarding conglict concetn. This view is supported by the NSPCC. I wrote to them about my concerns thst the GG policy contravenes all safeguiding practice everywhere, ever and also the Equalities Act 2010

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AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 22:54

GGUK has received training from Gendered Intelligence, a community interest company, which has also helped GG devise their policy on transgender members.

Gendered Intelligence has put together a series of resources with GG on gender identity issues for girls as young as 4 (Rainbows starts at 4 in Northern Ireland and 5 elsewhere in the UK)

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/talking-about-gender-and-gender-identity/

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SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:56

So they agree that there is no such thing as bio sex, and gender is all?

That does not fit in with a lot of their activism, at all.

I also see that girls who are not allowed to sleep overnight with boys can simply fuck off.

Great.

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WooWooSister · 05/03/2018 22:57

I don't think they do believe that. It also doesn't matter if they believe in self-id because there are liability issues and the law says children cannot get a GRC and hence can't change sex. Self-id isn't legal.
As for the sleeping guidelines, I remember being on a camp where there was a storm. Tents blew down etc. In the middle of the night, in a field, in the wind and rain, the sleeping allocation had to be changed because some tents were damaged and some DCs were freaking out. It's not as simple as leaders sleep separately.

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SnibbleAgain · 05/03/2018 22:58

The NSPCC also don't believe in biological sex?

This is nuts.

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WooWooSister · 05/03/2018 22:59

I was responding to Semas self-id point but type too slowly! Blush

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FusionChefGeoff · 05/03/2018 22:59

I've made this point before on another thread but....

My memories of guide camp are hazy in the midsts of time but I clearly remember spending at least one whole evening discussing periods, pubic hair and other such developments with our Young Leader as she came across as so worldly and wise!! Looking back, we were actually a very young bunch and nowadays the conversation would probably be more about sex / contraception / porn etc.

What would the trans girl do in this instance?? Depressingly, assuming they'd bought the ideology hook line and sinker, they'd kick up a huge fuss about how the other guides were excluding them and as a result, all discussion about female biology / sexual activity would be banned.

So a previously safe and 'supervised' way to discuss these vital things would be removed for 99% of guides to accommodate the 1%

WHY CAN NO ONE SEE HOW FUCKED UP THIS IS??!!

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AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 23:02

Some posters have mentioned Scouts as an organisation that manages mixed sex accommodation in camps etc. I researched the Scouts position on transgender members before writing to GGHQ.

Scouts has partnered with Mermaids in developing is trans policy. Scouts recognises self ID. Trans boys can share accommodation with girls. This is from their website, on managing sleeping arrangements on camps etc:

"There is no rule in Scouting stating that young people must be split by gender for sleeping arrangements. Sleeping arrangements should be carefully planned, assessing the needs and ages of young people, and any risks. A young person may be binding their chests or wearing very tight underwear to flatten themselves. The chance to privately remove this clothing overnight is very important.

Some options to consider, risk assess and discuss with the young person/family, are as follows:

• Sharing with other young people of their true gender (or their biological sex if they would prefer), either in large or small tents with their trusted friends.
• Large tents with various sleeping compartments, discretely allocating the young person their own compartment for privacy.
• Having their own tent / room."

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

Scouts are almost as negligent as GGUK but at least they offer the option of separate accommodation and acknowledge the need for risk assessments

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SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 23:03

woowoo i am afraid, as crazy as it sounds, it is true. I have ongoing conversations with the girlguides and with the NSPCC. I will post NSPCC first response below (which helpfully summarises the questions that i asked, as part of their answer)...

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WooWooSister · 05/03/2018 23:07

That's interesting. The Scouts are acknowledging the difference between sex and gender in their accommodation policy. Plus they are very much pushing towards 'the trans child needs privacy'.
It's woolly but much better than the GG imo.

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SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 23:08

Dear Xxxxxx,

Thank you for your email to the NSPCC. We received this on 21/01/2017 at 23.10 hours.

Thank you for providing us with a summary of your concerns relating to GGA. I have read through these and will try and answer your questions.

The NSPCC believes that all children have the right to self-determine their gender. Most individuals who experience gender dysphoria will experience this for significant periods of time before ever coming forward to identify themselves to others as either the opposite gender or sometimes even identifying with no gender. Many children and their families will have begun accessing services to support them in their transition by the stage they self-identify to others.

We do feel that all children have the right to feel safe from harm, the right to feel included and the right to be accepted for who they are. The GGA seems like it has consulted with the trans and non-binary community to discuss how best to ensure their organisation includes children who identify or are transitioning towards their desired gender. From the policy you have provided it appears the new policy is accommodating, inclusive and proportionate. It is not the right of other children or parents to know the intimate details of a particular child. While we appreciate your desire to safeguard children there is no evidence to suggest that children transitioning from one gender to another pose any safeguarding concerns for other children. This includes in organisations such as GGA.

I have answered your questions below as much as I can:


  1. Can they legally change the definition of girl/woman/female?


a. It is up to GGA to determine the composition of their troupes. NSPCC would agree that if a child self-identifies as female then they do have a legal right to access goods, facilities and services reserved only for females, such as the GGA. This is defined under the Sex Discrimination Act (Gender Reassignment) 1999

  1. Can they legally ignore safeguarding guidance regarding overnight accommodation and chaperones?



a. Disclosing the trans history of an adult or a child is both unethical and against best practice. All children, including trans children, have the right to feel safe from harm and be included in overnight accommodation. If a child identifies as female then they have a legal right to access a female only space.
b. No parent has a right to know the trans history of an adult or child.
c. It is up to the GGA to determine their own practice in terms of safeguarding overnight accommodation and chaperones. Simply having either a trans child on this trip or having a trans adult supervising children does not in any way constitute a safeguarding concern.

  1. Can they legally not inform parents if there is a male member of what is assumed to be a female only group?



a. Should the child or adult identify as female then they are female. There are no safeguarding concerns. I have included a brief bit of information above on the difficult and long process it can be for trans individuals to seek recognition and while self-identification appears to be an easy thing to do to the outside world individuals do not make the decision to self-identify as the opposite gender lightly.

  1. As well as safeguarding considerations are there any legal considerations regarding the inclusion of children from a diversity of religions and cultures; where girls will not be permitted to share facilities with boys?



a. GGA does have to make allowances for religious and cultural attitudes protected under human rights legislation. However as the children in these cases identify as female the GGA would be acting within this legislation as there would be no males present in the segregated accommodation.

I hope the email above goes some way to answer your questions and alleviate your concerns. I would again like to remind you that having a trans child within a GGA troupe would not be considered a safeguarding concern in itself.

Kind regards
Xxxxx Xxxxxxxx
Assistant Team Manager
NSPCC
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DodoPatrol · 05/03/2018 23:10

Good grief.

It's almost admirable how quick and stealthy the takeover has been, just by Mermaids/GIRES etc 'helpfully' and 'charitably' offering best practice guidelines to schools and organisations who all want to be inclusive, and presenting the world with a fait accompli.

So each individual Guide leader or school safeguarding lead now feels transphobic for raising ordinary safeguarding concerns, and thinks they're the one out of line.

Maybe a strike is in order.

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WooWooSister · 05/03/2018 23:10

Sema sorry - I didn't mean it wasn't official policy to believe it. I just meant having worked closely with lots of Guiders, I don't think the individuals believe it.
As for the NSPCC, I've emailed them about trans issues too. They are failing children on this issue imo

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SemaMjinga · 05/03/2018 23:11

NB...see answers 3a and 4a

Also, the Sex Discrimination Act (Gender Reassignment) 1999 which the NSPCC invoke, was repealed in 2010

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PositivelyPERF · 05/03/2018 23:11

That letter reads as if it’s come right out of the TRA handbook. The words are too fuck you if you don’t think trans girls are girls to even be a handmaiden.

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Winewinewinegin · 05/03/2018 23:11

Those of you who contacted guides or scouts with safeguarding concerns, who did your replies come from? They are both usually very hot on safeguarding so this is very odd. Same for NSPCC - who has been replying and ignoring basic risk assessments? This needs highlighting and addressing across all youth groups/charities/orgs working with young people and setting these policies.

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drspouse · 05/03/2018 23:12

As I posted on my other thread, I thought that the Sex Discrimination act a) made exceptions for sex EVEN EXCLUDING those with a GRC and b) this can't apply to children and pre-GRC individuals anyway?

Does it actually say that an organisation can have a GENDER segregated space? Because I thought it could only say SEX.

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WooWooSister · 05/03/2018 23:15

drspouse my understanding is the same as your's.

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FusionChefGeoff · 05/03/2018 23:18

Oh. My. God.

Again, let's rewrite everything to make sure the 1% is happy.

What about the rest of them???!

What about their right to feel safe??

What about bad men?? Why can't the NSPCC acknowledge that whilst this all is very inclusive and admirable if everyone behaved themselves, there is a truth universally acknowledged (because, you know, safeguarding) that not everyone does behave nicely and this is opening up massive risk everywhere.
.

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