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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

608 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 05/03/2018 19:29

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

  1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?


  1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.


  1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.


  1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos


So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!
OP posts:
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ofclocksandkings · 11/03/2018 19:32

italiangreyhound DodoPatrol

One example was when one of the Brownies had brought in Goodnight Stories for Rebel Girls, and wanted to read a few of the stories to the other girls. There's a story about a trans girl in America who campaigned for gender neutral bathrooms in her school district (and won). One of the girls asked what a trans girl was and another Brownie said "oh, it's just someone with a boy's body and a girl's brain", which totally satisfied the original girl. I know that this is an overly simplified explanation, but it's a good starting point and relevant to their ages.

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ofclocksandkings · 11/03/2018 19:42

StickStickStickStick

100 girls change in their tents, so realistically in front of no more than 2 or 3 people. If they want they can take it in turns to change in the tent, or anyone who wants to can change in the toilets / showers / a leader's (unoccupied tent). Guide camp isn't just 100 girls naked in a field!

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titchy · 11/03/2018 19:54

If a parent was uncomfortable with their child sharing with a trans child or any other child I would be questioning the parent trying to stop us including another child rather excluding the child who hadn't done anything wrong.

Shock Fucking hell! Talk about encouraging victim blaming.

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StickStickStickStick · 11/03/2018 19:55

Exactly !!

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StickStickStickStick · 11/03/2018 19:56

I've been all through the guide movement and have girls in it myself. Half the point is not having to be self conscious with bodies and changing in front of boys. The responsibility should be keeping boys out, not on a girl to have to speak up that she's (quite understandablt) uncomfortable .

I'm truly shocked.

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LangCleg · 11/03/2018 20:02

"oh, it's just someone with a boy's body and a girl's brain", which totally satisfied the original girl. I know that this is an overly simplified explanation, but it's a good starting point

How is that a good starting point? Our brains aren't separate to the rest of us and they certainly don't have a bloody gender. This is misinformation on a grand scale - and if kids are wandering about thinking such nonsense, it's even more likely their thinking will be as muddled about everything else they need to know about their bodies and their upcoming sexual health.

Christ. This is worse than abstinence only education curricula in religious areas of the US. And just like in those areas of the US, it will result in increased levels of STDs and pregnancies in young girls.

Just say the word trans and decades of knowledge about child protection and education disappears in a puff of bloody smoke.

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TheMonstrousRegiment · 11/03/2018 20:20

@ofclocksandkings

Ok, so it sounds like you have your mind ( as well as deciding the girls' minds for them ) made up regarding the position of the girls and their privacy.

However, have you really considered the entire ramifications of self-id?

Self-id means that ANYONE can self-id as a woman and you cannot challenge it. SO if a man shows up to either participate as a guide (currently age 25 and under) or as a guider and states he is a woman, you have no recourse to saying no. HE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A TRANSWOMAN. Do you understand this? This law is opening up women's space to anyone, and if you have ever followed the news you will know that deviant persons will take advantage of any situation that provides an opening.

Do you seriously care about your girls and their safety? Have a rethink about this policy.

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drspouse · 11/03/2018 20:23

@ofclocksandkings
The GG guidance is that we are not allowed to tell any other girl or any leader that there is a trans-identifying boy on the camp or at an e.g. swimming session.
So how are you going to work out who is uncomfortable?
If I, as a leader who has experienced anxiety and has some issues in my history that I'm not going to tell you about explicitly, does not want to share with a trans-identifying man, are you going to tell me that's fine, I'm just being prejudiced and I should get over it magically?

Do you seriously think that a religious Muslim parent is going to react well to your "questioning them" or are they just, you know, going to exclude their daughter (who also "hasn't done anything wrong" and who arguably has no other place to go - as her parent likely wants her in a single sex space).

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Datun · 11/03/2018 20:43

ofclocksandkings

I can see you are coming from a kind place. Many of us have been there.

But there is no reason why a boy identifying as a girl needs to go to the guides. He can go to the scouts. It's not necessary for him to choose the guides in order to be supported and enjoy that kind of experience.

What it is saying is that there is such a thing as girl's brain and a boy's brain and that is how we categorise the sexes. It's absolutely not true. There is no such thing as a girl's brain in a boy's body.

And, frankly, even if there is, they will still be male. Because biological sex is not a description of the way you think.

Lila Perry is a trans-girl who insisted on using the female facilities at school. They said all the girls agreed, except the ones who didn't, who were bigots.

They said they had a girl's brain in a boy's body. They said they were just like all the other girls. They suddenly felt right.

These are the two pictures. One at school, one afterwards.

There is a reason why we segregate by sex.

Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides
Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides
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StickStickStickStick · 11/03/2018 20:49

Girls brain?!?! Ffs.

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TheMonstrousRegiment · 11/03/2018 20:53

@Datun Can I PM you a question?

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titchy · 11/03/2018 21:01

Ofclocks - this is another one of Lila
https://images.encyclopediadramatica.rs/b/bd/PerryPenis.gif

Senior section age and wanting to share with 14 yo girls? Is this ok in your unit?

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MiaowTheCat · 11/03/2018 21:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thebewilderness · 11/03/2018 21:09

The girls who had known Lila Perry most of their lives walked out of school to protest the adults letting a known predator into the locker room with them. He was invited to the morning tv shows and the girls were not but they did finally convinced the school authorities that he was not who he said he was.

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Italiangreyhound · 11/03/2018 21:16

@ofclocksandkings

I know you want to be kind. I get it. But this is going backwards for gurus.

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Italiangreyhound · 11/03/2018 21:17

girls !

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Datun · 11/03/2018 21:50

TheMonstrousRegiment

Of course.

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Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 11/03/2018 21:56
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TheMonstrousRegiment · 11/03/2018 22:03

Thanks @Datun. PM Sent.

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ALittleBitOfButter · 11/03/2018 22:15

@ofclocksandkings "signposted towards mixed gender youth groups"

Why can't the trans identifying boys go to mixed gender youth groups too? Why must they be encouraged to enter spaces created for the benefit of the female sex?

Genuinely interested in your reply.

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ALittleBitOfButter · 11/03/2018 22:18

If i recall correctly Lila wanted to dance and parade half naked in the changing room, and thought the girls were being transphobic by not performing like a porn lesbian steam room scene in front of him.

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Bumblebzz · 11/03/2018 22:19

On another thread recently we questioned why the story of the trans child was included in the book of rebel stories for girls. It mentioned pink/glitter/shoes as being evidence of being “female” (FFS) and the “achievement” was a boy accessing girls toilets. Now I hear the story was used to explain/normalise gender stereotyping in Girl Guides of all places...I thought GG was one organisation where liberation of girls and women from harmful gender stereotypes would be a given. Wow, my daughter will never join the GG now. Glad I read this thread.

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Bumblebzz · 11/03/2018 22:24

As a leader, I would have expected you to step in at that point and refute the sexism in the story, and you could have done that without being in any way negative about the boy/girl at the centre of the story. I would have expected you to say “of course many (MANY) girls aren’t into pink/glitter stuff, and many boys are, and it’s perfectly fine to be a boy who likes pink glitter and a girl who doesn’t”. Perhaps you did intervene in which case I apologise for assuming you didn’t, based on your anecdote.

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averylongtimeago · 11/03/2018 22:24

Can I ask that the parents who have read this thread and are now saying their daughters will not join guides to PLEASE write to or email gghq to tell them.
If the only voices they hear are mermaids and their ilk, then they will be able to say their policy is what everyone wants.

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MiaowTheCat · 12/03/2018 06:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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