Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?

1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.

1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.

1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

My understanding is that females (girls) who identify as boys are not welcome in the GG as it's a single 'gender' organisation so they would have to leave.

From here
www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/
If a child or young person self-identifies as a girl or young woman then they are able to join any of our youth sections appropriate to their age.
We understand that if a young member is transitioning from female to male that they will be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. Flexibility and the Leaders’ discretion in conversation with the parents must be used to determine how long the child stays within the unit.

So from this it looks as though a boy who 'identifies' as a girl is welcome, but a girl who thinks she's a boy will be asked to leave. A girl who is experiencing change and uncertainty requires support, not exclusion. How on earth can this be described as an organisation for girls?

elle I don't think local authorities have any jurisdiction over us.
I would expect to be backed if a male volunteer or a Scout on a joint camp abused a girl in my care. Just as a teacher would if they followed regulations, or if a girl pressurised another girl into a sexual relationship.
If I'd told a girl she could sleep in the Scout tent, or allowed the male helper to be 1:1 with a girl I'd be in trouble.
I wouldn't be able to take a hypothetical situation to my DC as they'd just refer me to regulations.

Sema
That reply from the NSPCC - Thank you for providing us with links to speakers.
Did they really think you were recommending the likes of Stephonknee and Muscato as speakers?

@OldCrone I agree with you and have also raised this point with GGUK. I specifically asked that as GG has historically been a single sex organisation, then the guidance be changed to allow for a girl undergoing transition to stay, with no pressure or expectation to leave until when/if they are ready. I cited reasons of friendship and support as well the sex issue.

The reply from GGHQ was that GG has always been a single gender organisation. This refers to the inner sense of being a girl (!) and is different from biological sex. They are lying. GG has been single sex and in their own constitution they say they are single sex members only organisation to comply with the EA. Someone else explained this much more clearly upthread.

Maybe I've just got a suspicious mind, but no one ever seems to talk about AGP in relation to this hoo ha.

This troubles me.

Middle aged men with AGP make up a significant cohort of transwomen.

And are far more likely to demand the kind of validation that infiltrating female only spaces provide.

No one can tell the difference between a gender dysphoric male and a male with AGP.

And the girl guides will be unwittingly participating in the fetish.

It's true, that any man, could be predatory, in one form or another.

But it seems crazy to knowingly choose a leader/supporter from a cohort that officially includes a fetish. Particularly a fetish that relies on seeing females as weak, compliant victims.

In the bloody girl guides!

It's true, that any man, could be predatory, in one form or another.
Or woman
Or girl
Or boy

Did anyone post this longer GG trans guidance?

It's mind boggling. Any girl who is confused about gender or starts to identify as male must be managed out.

There is this piece as well:

"What should I do if a young member tells me that they are being targeted by transphobic bullying outside guiding?
A young member may be targeted by transphobic bullying for a number of reasons, including:

they do not fit with traditional gender stereotypes..."

So bullying which is sexist in nature or homophobic is now reframed as transphobic.

No wonder they are the most victimy victims ever.

"As Girlguiding is an organisation for all girls and young women, gender is a very relevant topic for
us. We hope that young members will feel safe and comfortable within our girl-only space to discuss
issues that are important to them. This may include a wider discussion about gender identity and
what makes them girls and young women. "

Biology is a big fat NO when disucssing what makes girls and women girls and women.

What do they do if a girl mentions menstruation or babies?

Send them off for re-education?

THEIR LGBT GUIDANCE PAGES HAVE NO INFO ON THE L OR THE G AND LOADS ON THE T

HERE

Sorry for shouting but I find that genuinly shocking. Literally all the links on that page are for Trans.

datun the GGs arent UNWITTINGLY participating the children in autogynaphilia. It is thought that more than 50% of adult men who transition have autogynaphilia. Therefore with a TKM leader there is a 50/50 chance that he has autogynaphilia. I asked the GG how they would screen for his, given that sexual fetishes arent illegal and wont be picked up by DBS.

This is their response;

With regards to your question about DBS checks and autogynephilia, you are correct that all leaders and a number of other volunteer roles require a DBS check. You are also correct regarding screening for autogynephilia, as this is not a criminal offence it would not be something that a DBS check would search for or indicate

We do not ask any volunteer or young member to disclose their sexuality, sexual orientation or preferences when joining Girlguiding, and would therefore also not ask for disclosure of autogynephilia

I am pretty sure that they wouldnt be allowing leaders to display any other sexual fetish whilst working with children though. Are you allowed to wear gimp suits to meetings?

"Please note: if a child is enjoying activities or expressing themselves in a way that is stereotypically
associated with a gender different to their assigned gender, for example a girl liking rugby, this does
not necessarily mean that they are identifying as a different gender or that they are trans."

Not necessarily

Cakeofthepan - I just did a quick google and could only find statistics for Australia, so yes while it is possible that women, boys or girls could also be predatory the actual reality is that "98% of sexual assaults are committed by men" - this is why people are worried.

Dr Spouse

I just called my local authority and they say that there is a designated officer for exactly your concerns. You can call them.

I would pinpoint the safeguarding issues that you think are falling through the cracks.

@CakeOfThePan this isn't about guiders viewing all men as predators. They are not.

But, there are far more Male sex offenders than female. Just look at the prison stats. Over 12,000 men compared to a couple of hundred women.

But that's not the only issue. This is the erasure of girls only spaces. Defining womanhood/girlhood by the very same stereotypes that GG say they are fighting against and acknowledge in their own research are harmful to girls.

Many organisations have successful mixed sex meetings and camps. But they acknowledge the risks and seek to mitigate them eg by segregating sleeping and washing/toilet facilities by sex or by careful management - a PP gave an example of a girl sharing a tent with boys she knew and trusted in camp as that was preferable to her being alone in a tent at night. If parents and children are informed and consent, there's no issue.

But GG WONT inform parents. It doesn't give girls a choice. They can't consent.

What do the GG have to do with the local authority?

OMG Sema, they actually said that!?!?!? I am rarely lost for words, but flippin' heck!

Do they know what Autogynephilia actually is? If you read the diagnostic criteria, it's pretty creepy (see attached)

I thought that 90% of TiMs were not dypshoric, and that only 10% were non AGP? Sure I've read that in Miranda Yardley's writings, that homosexual transsexuals are typically not AGP (there is some overlap, Paris Lees being one I'm fairly certain, India Willoughby another!)?

Horrifying about Gendered Intelligence and the advisory board for management of trans prisoners, given what we now know about the profile of 50% of trans prisoners, Dr W did a really good report on it that I think was picked up by the Times.

Dr Spouse

You can be held legally liable for safeguarding failures as a volunteer

elderflowerlegal.co.uk/tag/safeguarding/

The local authority safeguarding children’s board is the regulatory body with responsibility for all organisations that have safeguarding responsibility

The other thing that is really wrong with all of this from a safeguarding perspective is the level of complexity these very detailed fiddly policies bring. This gives a lot of power to specialist organisations to say how that law could be interpreted, which given they do not seem to be giving accurate information in all cases, or responding favourably to any kind of scrutiny, is questionable. The organisation and volunteers need training and information from a non biased source that considers biological women's rights to be important and can be trusted.

Surely it would make more sense to have single sex and safeguarding policies and make a judgement call about what to do as an exception WHILE FOLLOWING NORMAL SAFEGUARDING in the presumably small number of instances of trans children wanting to join or take part in specific activities?

"Surely it would make more sense to have single sex and safeguarding policies and make a judgement call about what to do as an exception WHILE FOLLOWING NORMAL SAFEGUARDING in the presumably small number of instances of trans children wanting to join or take part in specific activities?"

Well you'd think so.

Instead it's all, sex is irrelevant (which is a pretty big departure for GG) , and if someone says they are a girl / woman then they literally are and therefore there are no safeguarding issues.

How can GG tackle sexism if they don't believe in sex.

The fact that girls who say they don't know what their gender is / or who say they don't have a gender / or say they are boys need to be managed out is really grim.

Many many girls will be questioning given that gender role for girls is so so restrictive. GG used to understand this.

Now girls who aren't mega girly skipping arond saying "I'm a girl" are to be considred as probably (but not necessarily) trans... This includes girls who feel like people rather than girls I imagine.

I always felt like a person, how is this not good enough for GG?

I notice there’s been the same swapping of sex for gender and missing out of pregnancy and maternity in that list posted a couple of pages back as I’ve been taking issue with at another organisation.

Now, I can rattle off the nine protected characteristics, but not everybody can. Or they say “but sex and gender are the same, so it doesn’t matter”.

The Law Society might be helpful? I know they’re consulting on the EA in light of Brexit.

Tell me if this is going too far but I just took a journey into transgender Reddit, this turned up on the first google. I'm not quite sure what to say but this male is 16 years old:

"Hello everyone, I'm a 16 MtF transsexual. After years of doubt, I'm 99% sure I'm trans (I'm going to therapy). Basically, the problem is, I know I'm trans, I have dysphoria, but...for some reason, the idea of everyone seeing me as a girl turns me on, and I feel bad because I think it invalidates my transsexual identity.

So...is this "normal"? Is this a problem? Or maybe I'm not trans?"
www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/3lpwnh/i_know_im_trans_but_the_idea_of_being_treated/

One more thought then I must get on with my day:

'feeling like a girl' seems to be something only experienced by males?

Agnes I don't think it helps the argument though to say about abuse or predators, as abuse is something that should be safeguarded against regardless of who is in the mix. Statically more men are convicted than women but that doesn't mean that no woman abuses and so the protections should be in place anyway. So it is rather a moot point.

I get that about the safe space I said in a previous post that its the goal posts moving without consultation or procedures to continue to safeguard and thats the issue.
They are failing to protect the trans child and failing to protect the girls and thats more the issue.