Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?

1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.

1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.

1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

"feeling like a girl' seems to be something only experienced by males?"

Yes I think so.

Thread on here a few years back, only one woman out of ?must've been a hundred or more said they had an internal feeling of femaleness.

I have questioned before - problem is that a group who by definition have a certain feeling, have extrapolated that to mean that everybody has this feeling.

Most women don't.
Maybe it's a male thing
Maybe it's just a trans thing

The idea that most people have an internal and strongly felt sense of their "gender" is rubbish, of course they aren't interested in askign large numbers of people who dont' ID as trans if these new definitions and ideas have any meaning for them at all.

And yes agree - maybe men "feel like men" on the whole, which adds a further explanation as to why women are getting nowhere with this.

That Reddit thread seems to be saying that practically ALL TIMS are aroused by dressing as a woman (ie autogynaphilic)?

wellAsDanielleMTF 28 HRT 12/10/15 • 2y
I think it's fairly common. It probably stems from the thought that if everyone treats you like your desired gender, so will your sexual partners, which is something most humans take for granted. Unfortunately for us, we deprive ourselves of that feeling for so long that taking a half step in the right direction can set us off in that way

I think there is also a cultural issue around girl only spaces that is really important and related to the very ethos of guides.

That Reddit thread seems to be saying that practically ALL TIMS are aroused by dressing as a woman (ie autogynaphilic)?

I think, in Western societies, most studies find the AGP population outnumbers the rest of the male trans population by about 4:1.

So pretty much, yes.

CakeOfThePan

Deciding that predatory behaviour is not highly sex specific, is just obscuring the reasons for sex segregation in the first place.

Deciding that sex is determined by your brain is wilfully ignoring a) reality and b) the reason we categorise.

Now, quite unbelievably, they are saying they know the cohort who might want to work there constitutes, to a significant degree, sexual fetishists.

GirlScout72

And that reddit thread is absolutely shocking. The level of delusion is mind blowing.

And the boy said he had been feeling like this for years. He is only 16 now.

We do not ask any volunteer or young member to disclose their sexuality, sexual orientation or preferences when joining Girlguiding, and would therefore also not ask for disclosure of autogynephilia

I can't believe they are aware of this, and are disregarding it.

And what about leaders? They are talking of members there, what about the adults?

The 'volunteers' ARE the leaders datun...so perfectly fine with GGs to have male leaders, who are sexually aroused by being part of the GGs?

A poem from 1910 (regarding female suffrage):

The Revolt of Mother

(“Every true woman feels—-“—Speech of almost any Congressman.)

I am old-fashioned, and I think it right
That man should know, by Nature’s laws eternal,
The proper way to rule, to earn, to fight,
And exercise those functions called paternal;
But even I a little bit rebel
At finding that he knows my job as well.
At least he’s always ready to expound it,
Especially in legislative hall,
The joys, the cares, the halos that surround it,
“How women feel”—he knows that best of all.
In fact his thesis is that no one can
Know what is womanly except a man.
I am old-fashioned, and I am content
When he explains the world of art and science
And government—to him divinely sent—
I drink it in with ladylike compliance.
But cannot listen—no, I’m only human—
While he instructs me how to be a woman.

Alice Duer Miller

Given that 'the female sex' is often mentioned, I would be expecting that Agnes Baden-Powell and her contemporaries would also have talked about 'the female sex', and the intended the guides to be a single sex organisation. Debates around female suffrage, female health care, the role of women in society, suitability for public office etc, were all based around her sex. And let's face it, if gender had been used as a concept, it would probably have been used then to lambast female activists for showing behaviour deemed inappropriate for their sex (i.e. gender non-conforming females).

All of which seemingly can not be talked about in the guides ever again, whilst they are claiming they are (and always have been), a single-gender organisation..........We are (and always have been) at war with Eurasia, Winston...........(to paraphrase!).

That’s going on my Facebook tomorrow SomeDyke. Nothing transphobic in that. The more people that put that on there Facebook the better.

I think you lose some of the power of the argument by saying only men can be predatory, as it is simply not the case. It is the case that more men are, but it isn't solely men. The safeguarding is (and should be) in place to protect girls from predatory women as well. Abuse is abuse is abuse regardless of the perpetrator.

CakeOfThePan

Except knowing that 2% of predators are women, cannot and does not, have any impact on sex segregation.

Which is the issue here.

I think you can argue it changes the whole ethos of guides, its culturally an issue for some of the attendees, its not what people wanted when they were consulted. But the predator aspect shouldn't form part of the argument, because as you say theres already that 2% chance

That thread is an absaolute object lesson in

Male gaze
Male assumption that their view = THE view
Total lack of understanding of how objectification of women and girls damages everybody

This stuff about women and girls getting turned on by the reflection of themselves in the eyes of the male observer is very complicated and is a male constructed narrative.

All the films with women and girls being sexualised going about their daily lives - seemingly we are incapable of dressing, undressing, walking, eating, anything without doing it sexily and this male gaze narrative is taken and turned back on us with the claim that we do indeed turn ourselves on by imagining ourselves / or actually dressing, undressing, eating, sleeping.

How often in films ads etc do women put tights on in a way even appraching the way that normal women actually put tights on when dressing on an average morning?
How many women approach taking a shower as if they know a gaggle of men are watching and they are keen to get them aroused?

Female sexual predation is very very different to male, which is why segregation by sex EXISTS, it's why safeguarding EXISTS, it's why facilities for the most serious sex offenders don't even exist in the female prison estate. Other thing to remember is since the GRA in 2004, crimes committed by biological males have sometimes been counted in the female stats, I've just written to my PCC about this for clarification for my region. Stats could be wrong, as males could be being counted as females.

Fair Play for Women did a good report on this: fairplayforwomen.com/3781-2/

Girls are five times more likely to be preyed on by a paedophile than boys, paedophiles are absolutely always men bar the very odd anomaly (and then women tend to cover up for men, procure for men, or otherwise be in thrall to a man, it's a very different offender profile).

78% of child rape victims are GIRLS, look at all the other stats, it's GIRLS who are at more risk than boys, from MEN. Sexual assault in schools by boys against girls is massively on the rise, up skirt photos, sexual bullying.

There was a girlscout leader in the States, trans woman, used his position to rape girls in his care. It's already happening. If predators will train a therapist, become a priest, court and marry a woman and wait until she has children and they are the right age for his preference, then I seriously don't think it's beyond impossible that predatory men will exploit Gender ID.

I mean look at that Mesmac story in the press last week, a predatory paedophile managed to get himself to the HEAD OF SAFEGUARDING for a large metropolitan council and onto the board of a charity dealing with sexually traumatized young people, with one of the staff harassing a female child sexual exploitation expert who'd tried to raise the alarm about their safeguarding policy. Wherever there are gaps in safeguarding, there are predatory men. And then look what happens to whistleblowers, partic if they are women.

I think any appeal to GGA needs to include the predator angle. Plus even if AGPs aren't predators, are we really saying it's OK for them to work out their fetish in girls' safe spaces? They get aroused by crashing boundaries, being 'seen' as a woman, what we really don't think they are not going to have dick tingles with a load of girls having to call them Brown Owl?

We are even incapable of being murdered unsexily if you watch high gloss US crime dramas.

Our dead bodies are sexy.

This is why we need feminist discourse - and of course men - whatever they call themselves - they find it really hard to get to grips with this stuff even if they try to.

The men on that thread - they embrace the idea that the purpose of a woman / girl is to have her every move sexualised by men.

It's so tiring when people ignore the sex specific nature of predation.

There are 10 to 15,000 male sex offenders in prison. There are 120 women.

If we managed to stop male violence, the entire problem would almost disappear overnight.

"Sexual assault in schools by boys against girls is massively on the rise, up skirt photos, sexual bullying."

GG claims to care about this sort of thing - their sexism in schools report specifically mentions that girls are at risk from assault by boys.

I have no idea how they square this with the idea that one can literally become the other on a word.

Snibble

Quite, as the OP said, when she tried to bring it up she was told that girls sometimes have penises. Rape victims the world over rejoice!

I've spent a bit of time on trans reddit researching something else, it's quite blatant, I suggest, if you've just had your lunch, you don't look at the lactation threads - they even openly joke that 'blanchard would have a field day' - and no, you really do NOT want to know what they want to lactate for.

Datun
Having to constantly have the women do it too argument is a tedious waste of women's time and energy. By every global measure, men are completely out of control. God knows why they say women are 'emotional' - men seem to have very little control of their fairly sick impulses.

Totally agree re TV and depictions of women, read an article once that called it 'crime porn' - female fear as titillation and gruesome depictions of 'realistic' female murder as entertainment.

And yes the male gaze, we can't even talk about female arousal, desire and pleasure really - it's all about the man, which is why girls are under so much pressure these days, boys pressuring them for pornified sex. My 13 year old niece was overheard saying 'I hope I have big boobs, then boys will like me' - surely Guides should be a haven from this shit? Not spending with boys who think femininity is a bloody civil liberty.

I mean when you've got 12 year old girls turning up to the GP with a prolapsed anus (that's quite common these days, and surveys of boys said they like the idea that it HURTS) then call me old fashioned, I think risk of assault and coercion is a valid concern.

Why can't girls and women have the postage stamp sized space that's ours alone? The entire f*cking world is a man only space, I can't even walk my dog in the woods on my own! Or walk down a dark street at night, and now they want into the girls guide camp?

I think we just need to get better at saying 'we said NO' and that's it.

Im not disputing men are more likely, thats evident. However what i am saying is that the safeguarding should be in place already to prevent it from happening .
safeguarding mitigates it, its reasonable precautions you take to prevent it. It still happens sadly, because predators are just that.

Why do we bother DBS checking women? Because there is still that risk, all be it smaller than men and thats my point.

How can safeguarding be in place already? Universally ALL safeguarding advice is that it should be for sleeping, washing and undressing, segregated by sex, and GG are saying it's by GENDER?

Teaching girls to have boundaries is part of safeguarding.

Those rules are there to protect adults too. Also, frankly, saying 'girls can have willies' and 'this is our new brown owl' (big burly bloke in a dress) is a bit groomy, telling girls not to trust their own reality.

Plus Im assuming female leaders will have to bunk up and share a tent with a transwoman, all the 'women' together.

PS Ian Huntley, who btw is now saying he's a woman called Lian, was a serial rapist of women, police later admitted they let him get away long before he killed children. I think that's the kind of thing that WOULD show up on an enhanced DBS, even if he was never charged. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3313303.stm

I mean the safeguarding in place to prevent predatory adults.
Clearly the safeguarding isn’t in place to protect the trans child or the other girls. Which I’ve previously said

Cake

Sorry I'm still misunderstanding then? Protect the trans child and girls from whom? Each other?

DBS check only picks up known offences or warnings. Policies and procedures do the rest.

As I've said, tell me I've got a suspicious mind, but you name one other 'civil rights' movement, spearheaded in the main by adult males who never had childhood dysphoria, most of which are fetishists, so concerned with kids sexed bodies? I can't think of one.

Plus if we follow Queer Theory logic, biology is not real, it's fluid, it's an internal ineffable soul. By that logic, what is 'child' and what is 'age'?

A massive part of teaching boundaries to little kids is teaching them about bodies and body parts and names for things. Like teaching them 'what is in your pants is private' and now we are waving in an ideology that says 'penis is female' and submissive gendered expectations means you are a girl.

My instincts tell me there's something very wrong with that.

Datun, to clarify: all the leaders, in all the sections, are volunteers. From Sunflower in Rainbows, Brown Owl in Brownies, in guides and Rangers: we are all unpaid volunteers.
We have to be DBS checked, and we do get training including safe guarding and basic first aid. If we want to take girls away, there is a lot more training and lots of rules.

There are some paid staff at GGHQ in London, such as the chief executive Julie Bentley but all of us on the ground are ordinary volunteers doing this alongside our "normal " lives.

Sorry if you already know this, but it's worth repeating.
Quite frankly the safeguarding issues this raises are above my
nonexistent paygrade!

The safeguarding is there to protect all children so children from children, children from leaders.
As a side note it also adds a bit of protection for leaders from false allegations.

My understanding is that if the safeguarding policy used is negligent then volunteers could be held liable in civil courts.

That’s a PI type claim. I linked up thread somewhere