Victoria Derbyshire today and Girlguides

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Did anyone see Victoria Derbyshire on BBC2 this morning? Interesting discussion about transgender people and self ID. One of the speakers mentioned Girlguiding, which caught my attention as I am a Leader and I’ve had similar concerns but few people to discuss it with IRL.

You might have seen the press coverage (and threads here) about the changes to Girlguiding UK’s policy on inclusivity for transgender members

As a leader it’s my duty to implement the policy. I also have a duty of care to the girls in my unit. I’ve thought long and hard about this and in my view, GG has got it wrong.

GGUK recognises gender self identity, which is “a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman”. A male child who identifies as a girl can enroll as a rainbow, brownie, guide or ranger and a male who identifies as a woman can make the Guide promise and become a leader. Leadership roles have historically been women only (although men can volunteer for support roles that don’t need the promise and aren’t in charge of units).

The policy states that transgender children should use the accommodation of their acquired gender on camp. Parents of other children should not be informed - leaders are told it is neither required or best practice. Remember that Guiding also permits adult leaders (including men who identify as women) to share accommodation with children; it’s not the preferred option and at least 2 adults should always be present in the tent or guide hut but it does happen.

I have written to GGUK to outline my concerns:

1. the policy allows, for example, a 14 yo biological male Guide to share sleeping accommodation with a 10 year old female Guide.NSPCC advice is that children over 10 do not share a bedroom with the opposite sex. It’s not unreasonable for parents to expect GG to follow this advice. Why aren’t we?

1. The policy does not acknowledge the embarrassment a teen may feel when dealing with periods, washing and bathing in shared facilities with a person they may have known as a boy.

1. The policy is focused on the needs of the transchild and their preferences. As a Leader I have a duty to all children in my care and must balance each of their needs. Only in reference to changing clothes does the policy state that all children should be offered a more private place to change if desired, otherwise transchildren chose what facilities they use with no reference to their fellow guides.

1. If GG cannot guarantee truly single sex accommodation then some girls will miss out on residentials, eg girls from certain religious groups, those who have been subjected to abuse or who just don’t want to. This is against GG’s inclusive ethos

So far GG has responded with (template?) emails to say that GG has always been a single gender organisation, gender identity (as defined above) is recognised as separate from biological sex and Leaders should refer concerned parents to the higher ups.

Today’s TV show made me wonder how many people really understand the implications of the policy and have similar concerns. Leaders can't discuss other children with parents (rightIy so) but that means parents can't give informed consent to their child sharing mixed sex facilities. I'd like to gauge the feeling of parents but it's a sensitive issue and not something that I can just ask my girls’ parents. Perhaps you think I am over reacting. Perhaps you share my concerns. Either way, I’d like to know.

Finally, I should add that I’m not trying to have transgirls removed from GG. Neither do I think all men/boys are potential sex offenders. But I do owe it to the parents and children in my care to have assessed all the risks thoroughly. My point is that this policy poses a risk, which doesn't appear to be recognised by GG and Leaders aren't being advised how to manage it.

I do have to pop out for a bit now but will come back later, if anyone replies!

This is what i asked, after NSPCC first response;

Xxxxxx
Thanks for your reply regarding the new Girl Guiding Trans policy and safeguarding. Unfortunately, it does nothing to alleviate my concerns at all. I have further questions.

In my experience and opinion sex-segregation for overnight trips with children under 18, is universal and important. Similarly, same sex chaperones are essential for overnight trips with children under the age of 18.

1.  Would you please confirm that NSPCC consider these important safe guarding issues, or not, as the case may be?
   

As a girl and a woman I have always felt that sex segregation is essential for the following reasons;

· For privacy and dignity, for example in changing rooms and on hospital wards. To be amongst people with the same anatomy and physiology. From the age of 8 or 9 girls begin to grow breasts and pubic hairs and lay down body fat, they usually become self-conscious. Some will begin to bleed at this age. Boys are inquisitive to see how girls bodies are different and in a few more years start to become sexual aroused if they are heterosexual. It can be excruciating to be exposed to the ‘male gaze’ and most girls past this age will not want to share intimate accommodation or facilities with boys. Part of keeping girls and young women safe is to teach them about body autonomy and setting and maintaining healthy boundaries. We also teach them to trust their instinct by respecting them.

· For the purpose of safety; because, whilst sleeping or in a state of undress, a girl or women is vulnerable to male (sexual) violence, which is commonplace, and can occur in the form of ‘pranks’ amongst children.

2.  Regarding your answer 2a, where you state that all children have the right to feel safe from harm.  Does it matter to the NSPCC if the inclusion of a male child who identifies as female, makes female children NOT feel safe? Also,
   

3.  How would providing separate accommodation based on the childs sex, make them feel ‘unsafe’/at risk of harm?
   

As a mother of daughters I expect a same sex chaperone for overnight trips, so that they have someone they would feel comfortable approaching for help, if they need it. Young girls from around age 10 will be learning how to deal with the onset of menstruation. They may have a first period whilst away with a group. They may need to ask for sanitary protection. Their period may flood their clothes and bedding, they may have debilitating cramps and sickness, they may get a tampon stuck in their vagina, they may get cystitis, some girls may have been circumcised. I want them to have a chaperone that will have some understanding of the issues that they might be experiencing.

4.  What do the NSPCC consider to be the reason(s) for sex-segregation and same sex chaperones, to be an important part of safe-guarding?
   

I have never felt the need to seek gender-segregated spaces or facilities. A persons inner belief about their gender is of no consequence to the privacy, dignity or safety of girls. Females do not commonly have an ‘inner sense of being a girl or woman’, that is an experience that appears to be shared by trans-individuals. Women and girls do not need spaces segregated according to preferences for long hair, frocks, dolls, baking, a dislike of sports and ‘rough play’ or any other sex-based stereotype. How feminine a person feels is an aspect of their personality. I cannot see any logical or useful reason for having segregation based on femininity or gender-identity. It would infact exclude many females, myself included.

5.  What do the NSPCC consider to be the rational for gender-segregation?
   

It is interesting that you think a person is female if they identify as female. A female is; ‘of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes’. Humans are sexually dimorphic and it is not possible for humans to change sex.

6.  Do the NSPCC believe in biology and material reality?
   

7.  Do the NSPCC think that trans-gender people can change material reality with the power of their mind?
   

I am providing some examples of people who identify as women to illustrate the reality of self-identification. I have included a short profile for each of them, to demonstrate that these examples are a true representation of men who identify as women and have that self-identity respected and upheld by society;

Danielle Muscato

Civil Rights Activist, Writer, Debater, Public Speaker, Musician, Trans-Women

Currently residing in a shelter for homeless women, I believe

www.facebook.com/daniellemuscato.page/?fref=ts

Alex Drummond

Psychotherapist and mental health counsellor.

Thinks he is widening the bandwidth of how to be a woman….by fixing cars and getting his hands dirty

Stephonknee Wolscht

Left his wife of 23 years and 7 kids, to live his authentic life as a 6-year-old girl, with his adoptive parents, at age 43.

He was then employed by The 519 Community Centre as a Trans Consultant, and as such advised the Canadian Government

He was named and thanked by MPP Cheri DiNovo, in getting Bill C-389 ‘Tobys Act’ passed in 2012. This Bill makes same-sex gatherings illegal, in Ontario

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-father-stefonknee-wolscht-who-left-family-to-be-a-six-year-old-girl-uses-childs-play-to-a6775051.html

Anna Lee

former NUS Women’s Campaign Committee (trans rep),

Ran for NUS National WOMENS Officer 2016

Took a place on Lancaster University women’s basketball team, as an ‘act of defiance against the ‘massively gendered rules’

www.facebook.com/Anna.Charlotte.Lee

www.facebook.com/Anna4WO/?fref=ts

These people are not women, they are all privileged white males. In the example of Stephonknee Wolscht, this individual identifies as a 6-year-old girl.

8.  Do the NSPCC think that Stephonknee Wolscht’s age-identity should be accepted in the same way we are expected to accept his gender-identity?  As a self-identified 6-year-old girl, do you think the Girlguiding Association should let him join Rainbows?  If not, why not?
   

And, finally;

9.  Do the NSPCC consider honesty and transparency with parents to be important for safeguarding of children? 
   

I look forward to your reply

Regards
Xxxccx

The definition of gender-reassignment given by the EA10 7(1) is;
'A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex, by changing physiological or other attributes of sex'

That's very interesting. I must have read it a 100 times before, but it's only just occurred to me that 'attributes of sex' cannot be clothing, etc.

The way adults get around it is by saying they are in the process of changing. Which could, effectively last for years - whilst they do nothing.

But a child can't? Because that process isn't lawful if you are under age?

And how they responded;

Dear Xxxxxc

Thank you for your quick response. I have taken some time to look through your questions and answered them to the best of my ability below.

In terms of overnight accommodation gender segregated facilities which are inclusive of trans females would not be considered a child protection or safeguarding concern. It would be compliant with the law for GGA to facilitate access for trans children to facilitates appropriate to their gender. If GGA was non-compliant with the law and/or refused a child access they would be breaking the Sex Discrimination Regulations, 1999.

All children do have the right to feel safe from harm. However it is not clear that the presence of a trans female child in facilities appropriate to their gender in any way contribute to a safeguarding concern. Asking a child who identifies with a specific gender to use separate facilities and/or banning them from using facilities designed for their gender would be again considered breaking the above legislation.

The division of space based on gender is something with the GGA decide upon and it is not for the NSPCC to comment on this. The definition of a female is much more nuanced than the definition you have given. Many individuals have different opinions on how words are defined and again it is not up to the NSPCC to make comment on this. Thank you for providing us with links to speakers. There are very many different types of trans individuals and gender is very much a spectrum. The individuals you have identified demonstrate the diversity of gender. Again it is not up to NSPCC to make comment on the gender identity or gender expression of any individual.

Trust and transparency with parents is important when it comes to running any service, charitable or otherwise. However the NSPCC do not consider the disclosure of an individual’s gender history a necessary discussion to be had with parents, nor an ethical or legal one.

Should you continue to have concerns regarding the GGA’s decision making surrounding the inclusion of trans females then you have the right to decide whether you would like your daughter to remain part of the Rainbow troupe. This is a decision you can make as a parent.

Thank you for your email correspondence. However as we have made our stance on this matter clear in this and the previous email we will no longer be engaging with you on this subject matter. Should you have any child protection concerns please do feel free to contact us on 0808 800 5000 or email [email protected]

Kind regards,

Xxxxx Xxxxxxxx

Assistant Team Manager

NSPCC

Elle thankfully the buck does not stop with us - as we are volunteers -
unless we have acted illegally/outside guidelines.
If we follow guidelines then it's up to our District Commissioner, then Division, County etc.
So for example if a girl discloses to me that she's being abused, I say "thank you for telling me, I'm listening, I can't promise not to tell anyone" and I don't investigate, I tell my DC. She passes it on upwards.
If I allow a parent helper to be one-to-one with a child (even their own child) and an accusation is made, I imagine I'd be disciplined at the very least. That is against guidelines.

Hi Sema

I’m shocked that it has taken them so long.

Did they say when the meeting is and when you can expect a response?

print all your emails and the replies and put them in date order. Let’s get our ducks in a row.

If the board doesn’t make a decision/ fails to consider your points then I’d like to help put a case together.

Hi Dr Spouse

I’ve had a little look and I think you are probably regulated by your local authorities safeguarding board.

I suggest calling them and getting contact details for a particular individual to email. I can help draft the email if you like.

I would also ask them who they hold responsible because when social workers get it wrong they are held liable together with their employer. I’m not sure being a volunteer would be any protection from that. Not my area though so I admit I’m speculating

Whaaaat?
Are they genuinely thick?
Gender might be nuanced but sex isn't.
Opposite-sex children should be in different tents to avoid the risk of opposite-sex experimentation producing pregnancy.

Whether it's a boy plus girl, boy plus transboy, or transgirl plus girl, a pregnancy cannot happen to the biologically male child and could happen to the female child.

They MUST know this. There is no reason for segregating by gender instead of sex. (I wonder if the NSPCC thinks the 'trans female child' is actually female in that reply?)

elle i also contacted my local safeguarding board. I will see if i can find their response...its in the same vein though

I wonder what their response would be if you asked them for their reassurance that you will not be held responsible if a child is sexually harmed in your care, by a TIM? How are they going to answer that?

This was my initial reply from the safeguarding board;;

Dear Ms Xxxxxxxx

Thank you for your query. The Bristol Safeguarding Children Board (BSCB) has considered you enquiry and has taken legal advice and advice from the equalities officers in order to provide you with a response.

The BSCB is not able to provide legal advice to members of the public. Your query states you are asking if you have a legal argument and in order to clarify this you will need to seek your own legal advice. You can do this by approaching the Law Centre or Citizens Advice Bureau.

The BSCB scrutinise about local policy issues. This appears to be national guidance.

If you have any specific safeguarding concerns about an adult working with children you can refer the matter to the Local Authority Designated Officer (LADO) who would deal with this matter.

Also I am sure you are already aware that any adults involved in regulated activity with children are required to have an enhanced police check (DBS) to ensure safeguards are in place.

In terms of an equalities perspective then there is agreement with the guidance.

A transgender girl is no more likely to be sexually predatory towards girls than any other girl. Being transgender is no indicator at all of sexual identity, sexual orientation or sexuality.

I hope this answers your query.
Yours
Xxxxx Xxxxx

It went backwards and forwards after this, but its a lot to post here

Basically, no one will give a moral\ethical\ safeguarding informed OPINION...and say that individuals have to take there own legal advice. Which is impossible. Which individuals can afford a legal challenge of the GirlGuides?!?! I was going to crowd fund for one, but couldnt find any law firm willing to take it on. I contacted around 15, i think

I think a collective madness has overtaken all our institutions.

You can't be a responsible organisation running overnight trips for minors if you put one capable of making the other one pregnant in the same tent without supervision. It doesn't matter how either of them bloody well identify.

How can you be so thick that you cannot understand this?

Have you considered a shorter email that just says "does the NSPCC understand how babby is formed"? Because at this point I think there may be some confusion there.

Sema, thanks for posting all of the correspondence.

It’s utterly rage and despair inducing. Excuse me while I go and shoot myself in the head.

SemaMjinga

I've just doublechecked about what 'attributes of sex' means.

The statutory code which is written by the European Court of human rights to uphold equality law does clarify that, certainly in cases of children, clothing is considered part of 'gender reassignment'.

Although, it's little wonder that they want to get the definition changed to gender identity. As this would require absolutely nothing. Meaning they can go through life irrefutably as their actual sex, whilst saying they are the opposite.

That Stephoknee clearly states that he is escaping from reality. Therefore he knows it is not real and that he is pretending to be a 6 year old girl rather than actually being one.

So why the fuck are other people forced to pretend something that isn't real as reality?

And that response from the NSPCC is a fucking disgrace.

My DD wants to join the guides as some girls from her school go. Not a chance now.

I don't think you are helping the argument concentrating on things like pregnancy. Scouts, schools and other groups mitigate and safeguard against that up and down the country. Regardless of genders and sex abuse happens between the same sex and genders as well as the opposite so again the safeguarding should be in place to prevent that between children and leaders. By also concentrating on 'bad boys and men wanting to abuse girls' i don't think your helping the argument either, as it too easily closes down discussions with the blame passed on you being trans phobic .

Girl guides as a group decided not to allow boys as a result they have no procedures in place to practically deal with allowing boys. The trans child would need safeguarding as much as the next child, they are failing the trans child as well as failing the other girl guides. They are chasing the goal posts without consulting parents or leaders. I think you would have more success with that then blaming pregnancy, and abuse.

@Datun

A key part is (as per EA2010 s7):

(1) A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo. . .a process (or part of a process)

Proposing to undergo - comes into effect as soon as a person decides to undergo reassignment.

Process (or part of a process) - the process does not necessarily have to be medical. Process in these cases could also take into account any process undertaken, or being sought be taken, socially.

Thanks everyone for your contributions to this thread. I am working so just sipping in when I can. It's such a relief to see that so many others share my concerns. And horrifying to see just how complacent organisations like GGUK and NSPCC are being.

What strikes me is that when I joined GGUK I had to have a DBS and references. I, or any other volunteer, am highly unlikely to be a predator. We undertake these processes as a way of managing risk and I'm certainly not offended by it. I don't assume that because I'm asked to do this, people think I'm an abuser. But there are abusers out there and as the impact of abuse is catastrophic, it's a reasonable precaution.

I don't understand why GG assume that teen TIMs and girls in same tent won't at some point end up in sex (that may or may not be consensual). Are all TIMs gay? Is that what GG are implying? I don't think every man/boy/TIM is a sex offender, not by any means, but they do exist and we need to acknowledge that risk, however small.

This whole thing is such a mess. I'm so sad that one of the last safe, all female spaces has gone. Girls have been told that their privacy, dignity and rights to assert their own boundaries don't matter, that they must make way for boys and men at every turn. They have to deal with this shit at school and now in GG and I assume most other youth orgs.

But there is some hope - there are gender critical guiders out there and we are fighting this. I'm pressing on with my letter writing campaign. The legal stuff is complicated and will take time to get off the ground. Having concerns isn't enough - I need watertight legal arguments.

I'm also fucking furious that GG has been so dismissive of me so far. As well as meetings each week there's all the time spent on admin, answering queries, weekends given up for training and trips. I am worth more than a template email response that doesn't even pretend to answer my questions.

Gendered Intelligence and Mermaids have trained the NSPCC. Gendered Intelligence have also had influence on the guidelines used by the Government Equalities Office (so the guidance the equalities minister would refer to I think).

Mermaids are also working with childline (NSPCC) to refer kids calling about gender confusion onwards.

The thing I don't think people have yet grasped is that the trans lobby is mainly spearheaded by adult males who never had dysphoria as children, and as in common with 90% of adult transwomen, don't have dysphoria as adults either. Which begs the question, why are they so interested in other people's children? I mean, they say that trans is not a mental illness, and no transition is necessary, but seem mighty keen on pushing kids down a medical pathway that keeps them in a perpetual state of paused puberty (switching off male puberty and adding exogenous hormones of opp sex is NOT a puberty btw).

Maybe I've just got a suspicious mind, but no one ever seems to talk about AGP in relation to this hoo ha.

drspouse

You said:
My concerns are around:
a girl telling us they are transgender but that we can't tell their parents, which seems to be included in the policy.
ditto but the girl telling us they want to/are taking puberty blocking drugs.

My understanding is that females (girls) who identify as boys are not welcome in the GG as it's a single 'gender' organisation so they would have to leave.

As an example of the censorship within GGUK at the moment:

There is a UK wide Facebook page for leaders, has about 9,500 members. It's a closed group so none outside can see posts. Someone posted the link to the Victoria Derbyshire clip from Monday, asked if any one had seen it, what did they think etc.

An admin replied with a link to GGUK policy then switched off comments. NO DEBATE!

Dr Spouse

Would you mind contacting your local authority safe guarding board stating your concerns and asking for guidance as to whether the policy meets their standards.

I’m wondering if you will get a different response from Sema as you are a practitioner.

@GirlScout72 I have also have serious concerns about Gendered Intelligence. For a small, single issue pressure group, they're reach is enormous. They go in to schools, have connections with government policy makers...women's groups can't get a word in.

I did a bit of digging on GI when I found out they were behind the GG policy.

The CEO of GI is also a member of the National Offender Management Service Transgender Advisory Board. The Board provides advice to inform policy and establish best practice relating to the treatment and care of transgender and non-binary offenders in prison custody or under the supervision of the probation services.

It's confirmed in the GI annual report which you can find online. As is there annual funding of approx £185,000 from Children in Need

I think trans children of both biological sex need to be considered in the safeguarding. I think it is not reasonable to put parents in a position where their children may share sleeping quarters with someone of the opposite biological sex, without the parents knowledge or consent. I think it is unreasonable to put children in the position where they cannot choose not to share sleeping quarters or other normally sex segregated spaces with members of the opposite biological sex. Changing pronouns does not change this.

elle is it the Government Equalities Office (GEO) that you think would be interested in this?? The email i sent to the Childrens Vommissioner got forwarded to them. THIS is GEO response;

Dear Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxc,

Thank you for your recent e-mail addressed to Anne Longfield and Robert Goodwill. Given the nature of the concerns you raised, your correspondence has been passed to the Government Equalities Office (GEO) for a response. I am replying on behalf of the GEO.

Firstly, I would like to thank you for taking the time to set out your views on this matter so comprehensively. The GEO appreciates hearing from members of the public and considers seriously all the issues and concerns that are raised in correspondence. It is not possible, however, for us to comment specifically on a number of the concerns that you detailed in your e-mail.

The Girl Guiding Association (GGA) sets its own policies. The GEO is not in a position to judge whether or not an organisation’s policies breach the Equality Act 2010. It is for individual organisations to ensure they are compliant with the provisions of the Act and for the Courts to rule on any breach. The Equality Act allows for the provision of single-sex services, such as overnight accommodation, and allows for the exclusion of transgender individuals from these services if doing so is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim.

The GEO encourages all organisations to be trans inclusive, and has previously published guidance for organisations on the provision of single-sex or communal facilities for trans individuals, which can be read at the following web-page: www.gov.uk/government/publications/providing-services-for-transgender-customers-a-guide#_blank.

As part of the Government’s forthcoming consultation on updating the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA), we will be making no changes to the single-sex provisions of the Equality Act.

Yours sincerely,

Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxxx

Government Equalities Office