Biological SEX MATTERS. How many mumsnetters say "aye" to this campaign?

[SexMatters]

This document and campaign called 'Sex Matters' is a collaborative effort by amazing and knowledgeable mumsnetters on a couple of threads in FWR.

To move forward with the campaign, the organisations and individuals approached will need to know who is behind it, and the honest truth, is that mumsnetters have spearheaded it.

That does not mean that other campaigners can't get involved or even take greater ownership of it. But it needs a bio in order to introduce it to people and organisations to get started and I need your consent to describe the campaign this way: 'mumsnetter led' (and maybe even some suggestions for writing a bio on this thread).

So, you amazing gender-critical mumsnetters, do you say 'aye'?

AYE

Aye

Aye

Both have made very good comments above, with very common sense solutions, as well as challenging 'feelings' with biological facts - well said to Titchy and Kochab.

I think I would be an aye if the page about "who wants to access ..." was removed, or vastly edited.
I agree with several others that it reads as "transwomen are all big pervy fetishists".
As for the "non conforming" and "dysphoria" paragraphs, well, you just read that and think "poor sods, where's the harm?"
It may be so that the majority of TIM men who are clamouring to access women's spaces ARE the fetishy/perv variety, but when you put that in an otherwise sober document with an informational tone it is VERY jarring, and makes the whole thing look a bit...green ink.

I think you need to stick to facts, and just mention that making female single sex places accessible to men, however they identify, can lay the facility/service open to ANY men, some who may have predatory motives.
Everyone knows what kind of men this means, and that pervs and flashers exist.People can read between the lines, and think of their own experiences, rather than a being linked to a bunch of Sun articles about sex pests.

Put it in peoples minds that making women's spaces unisex makes them vulnerable to abuse, rather than second guessing all the reasons men may want to get into them (which you can't prove anyway, and can be seen as entirely a matter of opinion/predjudice).
The point is not "how can we tell the difference between the OK transexuals and the pervy flashers?" it's "How can we sensibly make sure that we don't actively remove safety and rights from women to give more access to a small minority.

Basically the whole thing needs to be sharper, drier and less emotional.

Sorry, bet you wish you hadn't asked!

Everyone knows what kind of men this means, and that pervs and flashers exist.People can read between the lines, and think of their own experiences, rather than a being linked to a bunch of Sun articles about sex pests.

They don't know though. This conversation is not being held honestly. People are not on the same page. They are thinking that "trans women" all have gender dysphoria and are sensitive feminine males. It is necessary for those reasons.

As for the "non conforming" and "dysphoria" paragraphs, well, you just read that and think "poor sods, where's the harm?"

You might. I don't. Women matter.

Everyone knows what kind of men this means, and that pervs and flashers exist.People can read between the lines, and think of their own experiences, rather than a being linked to a bunch of Sun articles about sex pests.

They don't know though. This conversation is not being held honestly. People are not on the same page. They are thinking that "trans women" all have gender dysphoria and are sensitive feminine males. It is necessary for those reasons.

No, they do. Everyone knows there are dodgy pervy men in the world. You don't actually need to bring transwomen into it at all.
Whether they do all have gender dysphoria, or they are all fetishist, it's kind of not the point. The point is that opening up single sex female spaces to males makes females more vulnerable to the wrong kind of man. Not the wrong kind of man in a dress, that's irrelevant.
Does that make sense?

You can feel sympathy for someone who is gender non conforming AND care about women.

Whether they do all have gender dysphoria, or they are all fetishist, it's kind of not the point. The point is that opening up single sex female spaces to males makes females more vulnerable to the wrong kind of man.

I don't agree that it's not the point. I think it is a large part of the point. Transgender means any man who puts a dress on occasionally. That is who policies are being made for, as much as old school transsexuals who have had surgery. And we need to not shy away from that or we will lose our rights.

There are plenty of campaigns that tiptoe round this issue. I really feel there is a need for a fully honest one.

It was very clear, watching that Victoria Derbyshire debate, that you have a problem articulating why you have an issue when you can't call a spade a spade. Even though DrW and Sarah did so well the doublespeak is a massive problem in this arena.

Aye

IfNot TBF over 500 people agreed without quibble, a handful had concerns about that page, of those a few felt conflicted about saying "aye" and only a couple thought it was a deal-breaker..

So I think it is time to move on.

I was unsure about the list but changed my mind because I think the target audience of the Sun and 'This Morning' (Philip Schofield etc ) are actually not reactionary or negative - programmes are all self-congratulatory - 'we're so right on/liberal and happy for (insert name of male who wants to be a woman ).'

It's presented like a makeover programme where the male is happier after dressing as a woman (a modern fairy tale) with the added bonus that the viewer pats themself on the back for being so 'modern thinking'.

No wider implications are addressed. So I think the masses are being seduced into a much more cosy image that doesn't look at the bigger picture for women.

Thanks Erish it reminds me of the myths about punters of prostitutes - that they are all just lonely or unattractive men that 'can't' get sex any other way... aw.. pity.. diddums..

It is important to expose the fact that many punters do it for the power trip, the convenience or the pure sadism otherwise you can't actually address the true issues behind prostitution at all.

I completely agree with that aRespectable. Most people do buy into the BBC version of transgender.
SexMatters to be fair, the majority of people reading a feminist board have no problems with the document. I support you, and want the document to be clear and sound sensible to the majority of people full stop.
But, sure, moving on, no problem. Good luck.

Thank you IfNot

It is important to expose the fact that many punters do it for the power trip, the convenience or the pure sadism otherwise you can't actually address the true issues behind prostitution at all.

YY. A lot of violent and abusive men have absolutely no compunction about appropriating and weaponising victimhood and using it against women. And I think we see this a lot with transactivists.

IfNot, she meant put this specific issue to bed, not that you should leave.

No wider implications are addressed. So I think the masses are being seduced into a much more cosy image that doesn't look at the bigger picture for women.

But as we see (can't remember which thread but posted earlier) they don't all want them to be their child's primary school teacher or a police officer. 84% of people in a survey said they weren't prejudiced against trans people at all, but only 41% and 43% thought they should be able to be primary school teachers and police officers.

That is the hypocrisy about the 'feel good' bandwagon rolling into town via TV.

Viewers get to say they are happy about it without addressing any wider issues. When they think it may impact them personally, then it turns out they have no logical thinking at all.

I do not see any issue with a trans person as a teacher, police officer etc, but I do have a problem with the double speak to say they are female. (I don't think changing appearance/hormones changes one's sex and I would like third option for vocabulary and legal situations and certainly not self ID).

Aye

(Sorry I'm very late)

No worries anxious

there will be more pie charts!