My elderly parents peak transed today

[MyBeloved]

I was having a lively debate with my parents (both in their 80s and incredibly with it and intelligent) and the subject of womens only safe spaces came up. I decided to tell them about the proposed issues involving TIMs.

And they peak transed.

So begins the spread of this information among their friends, and the ripples will spread.

Gender is the hierarchy while sex is the material reality of human society.
Gender is a belief system that advocates have persuaded government to codify into law in the same way that a company is personified in law.
Right here right now the issue is self ID and what will happen to the society when men rule the streets as they did 100 years ago. With their fists.

Only males can be transwomen, which is how we know they are men, not women.

I was completely oblivious to all of the issues and ramifications involved in the trans debate, until I stumbled upon a thread a couple of months ago.

My views changed from being understanding of the expectations and wished of transwomen / generally uninterested overall, to reaching peak trans almost immediately I had read up on some of the mountains of information available on the internet.
One of the things that I totally reject and object to is that the opposing argument seems to repeat this utter crap that anyone who thinks that transwomen should not have access to women's spaces or take over places on women's sports teams, are transphobic and full of hatred. Wtf??

I really, really don't hate trans-anyone. I would happily stand up and fight (verbally and politically rather than physically!) to ensure that transwomen are safe and live free from hatred, abuse etc, but I do not want a transwoman doing my smear test, using my office loos, playing against me on a women's footie team or leaving me standing / shuffling while competing against me in the 200m sprint, then followed by using shared changing facilities and showers. If I am a vulnerable woman in prison or a refuge, I don't want a transwoman alongside me. I don't want to be told that I have to accept this. And this is all without even going anywhere near the completely different level of some men just latching onto the unbelievably easy way of accessing spaces which previously they could only fantasise about.
When I first read up on it I was absolutely horrified, but surprised that I had been so oblivious to what was happening. I'm now really absorbed by all of this information and have explained to quite a few people, the issues involved and the potential consequences of the GRA.

Thanks for the inspiration MNers, I have started to share the information although I now spend waaay too much time reading everything that I can find on the subject and my house is a tip (no change there, then!).

So there's no such thing as a trans (wo)man, just a (wo)man who identifies as a (wo)man.

Yes?

Ish??

What the flibberty gibberts in CIS?

What's GRA?

#naive

@wakemeupbefore

In answer to your question, yes, transmen are women. And their voices are very quiet, funny that.

Would Scott Wilson have been raped by this offender, with a history of raping women, if they were not biologically a woman? reported here

Most women on these threads understand the oppression of women is based on our biology.

Fuck off with attempts to divide us.

A trans woman is not a woman and should never be considered the same, but she is also not a man and should not be considered the same

No, he is a man.

He might have be gay (homosexual)
He might be an Autogynephile (sexual fetish for dressing as a woman)

Society often does see them as failed men. And if they're not perceived as men,well they must be women.Because only women like pink and dresses and lippy. Aparently.

What the flibberty gibberts in CIS?

Here you go.

Mumsnet is like an oracle. Ask, and you shall be answered.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3168124-cis-is-an-abusive-term

GRA is the Gender Recognition Act. Here is a pdf
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/pdfs/ukpga_20040007_en.pdf

GRA - Gender Recognition Act. There are changes proposed that will impact massively upon the trans community (positively) but also upon women (negatively). For centuries (millennia?) men have been in a position of privilege and control and now they will be able to decide that they can be women too. Sorry, but I'm rubbish at attaching links but the UK government website has the relevant details about the proposed amendments. There are many sources of opinion on the internet about the likely impacts of the legislative changes, including some details in the Feminist section on MN.

Sorry bewilderness - cross post

@wakemeupbefore

"This place is like a weird sci-fi time warp.... This and slow-news-media. As Homo Sapiens, we have 2 sexes. Everything else is wishful thinking.
I shall go now"

I'm puzzled by this post. Yes there are two sexes. Who is "wishfully thinking" there's more?

It's government who need to understand that there are two sexes. If they weren't having such an issue with biological facts, we wouldn't have to keep raising awareness here. If you think this is sci fi, read the House of Commons debate transcript.

And now I have a Pete Shelley ear worm because of you!

Don't you find that a bit unfair saying all x group must be y because some are.

Comprehension not a strong point, I see.

Nobody is saying that.

@DuckBilledAardvark the GRA (details posted by thebewilderness) is the reason threads such as this exist. Overwhelmingly the posters on these threads fully support the rights of trans people and would not otherwise take the time to debate issues relating to trans people, but the proposed changes of the GRA mean ANY man can self-identify as a women and gain the legal right to enter women only spaces as a women (refuges, prisons, rape centres etc) just by filling in a form.

If enshrined in law this presents huge loopholes which predatory men can take advantage of, and any man seeking to take advantage claiming to be transgender can also take advantage (this is already happening in sports, all women short lists etc).

Under current law a person born male can legally be recognised as a woman if they have a GRC (Gender Recognition Certificate) which is gained through a process which the proposed GRA seeks to rid. Many transwomen who hold GRCs are also very concerned about the proposed changes to the GRA as deciding to change sex if far greater than just filling in a form and it undermines their experiences of transition.

@DuckBilledAardvark the very short answer is this:

GRA = piece of proposed law updating that would effectively mean any man could become a woman by signing a piece of paper.

This person says they are a transwoman: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2876810-Danielle-Muscatos-tweet-on-international-womens-day

Various violent male sex offenders say they are transwomen

A 6ft 2 male born person says they are a transwoman and has now been allowed to play in the women's team.

Etc

How do we tell who is really trans?

How do we tell who is really trans?

I have said before that there needs to be much more discussion about what trans actually is before we decide who is really trans. My understanding is that in men trans is linked to either homosexuality or Agp.

Do we actually accept that gay men are women and are harmless? If so why? I really don't want to get undressed in front of any man regardless of his sexuality. I don't want to have to pretend that he is actually a woman and I don't want him in my space simply because he can't deal with his sexuality.

Considering the rest of society's struggles with a range of mental illnesses, I really am baffled why gay men have managed to generate such sympathy and support from the very women they intrude upon and gaslight.

It is not possible to transition from one sex to the other. Therefore people with body dysmorphia focused on sex need to be treated the same way as people with body dysmorphia focused on weight, anorexia, and those with body dysmorphia focused on amputation and those addicted to plastic surgery.
These are all mental illnesses and research and treatment needs to be pursued.
The medical profession has finally stopped chemically and surgically altering intersex people and they need to bloody well stop chemically and surgically altering people with body dysmorphia.

I'm struggling to explain my feelings about this. Actually, that's not true. I'm worried about sounding [mean]. And I'm wondering how other people feel about it.

I don't think we are going to get very far while we constantly express utmost sympathy for those men we call "genuine transwoman". As we know they All claim to be genuine. All discussions come back to how we can keep them in while keeping Agps out. Feeling sorry and being nice has brought us here.

These gay men have equally conned and gaslighted us. They started the story of being trapped in the wrong body and insisted on changing laws and forcing us to call them women. Is that kind and harmless? Why does the gay man think he has any right at all to be in women's spaces? Why is his sexuality our problem?

I see little difference in these men (apart from the sexual motivation). Both groups are misogynistic.Both gaslight, both manipulate and both intrude on womens boundrys. Both expect we should shut up and put up.

If we are going to tell the truth about the trans agenda i think we need to tell the full truth. There are no genuine transwomen, there are Agps and there are gay men. I don't feel either belong in women's spaces.

Until we start to be clear about this the topic is going to continuously cycle back to the genuine harmless transwoman who allegedly just wants to get on. For some reason we overlook the fact they are in our bathrooms gaslighting us just as much as the agps. And for the most part, they have little to say on this matter. They "don't know" about it. Even when they come here, on a thread titled trans, they "don't know about it".

Most people don't give a shit about gay men, unless he's a transwoman. I'm not sure why we are covering for them and pretending they are women and that we don't mind.

Because of Mumsnet, I had an open honest conversation with my three DDs ages 17-25 this afternoon about trans people. They had no idea I can't decide who was more shocked. Me, discovering they really didn't know much at all about trans or them, realising the horrible truth. All three were quite stunned at the realisation of what may happen if their generation of young females sat back and did nothing. All 3 are going to talk with their female friends about this.

I am deeply sympathetic to people with body dysmorphia.
On their behalf I am furious at the medical practitioners who have been killing them for years and years by experimenting on them. Now those same unethical medical practitioners want to expand to experimentation on children.
WTF kind of a government would allow this knowing the history of medical malpractice and abuse? We must stop this cruel "affirmation therapy" that destroys people.

I agree, Terfinator. I think a lot of the "oh but true trans are so kind and harmless and we must express utmost concern for them" is basically female socialization in its most self-defeating form. We've all been programmed to put other people first, especially if they're men, and to feel guilty about putting our own interests first. This is a case where we really, really need to put our own interests first, because neither regular men or TIMs will extend us the same consideration that we've been trained to extend to them, and that puts us at a disadvantage.

I agree that women should have rights obviously but trans people are women and for the most part genuinely feel that way and will transition completely.

Which is fine, but a TRA is someone who may only 'identify as female' for 2 hours on a Wednesday evening at the women's only swimming session.

Added to that is the demands for access to vulnerable women and girls (all women and girls should not have to put up with TRA's but some are more vulnerable.). My carer is male, we went to donate something to the local refuge, he asked if they wanted him to walk round the block rather than come in. My carer is not an abuser, but he realised that a refuge is a safe place for women and him being there might not be appreciated.

TRA's are demanding to have access to women's refuges, at the moment the refuge has an exemption from the sex discrimination act, it the legislation goes through a man who has abused a female partner who has gone to a refuge can say he self identifies as a woman and demand access.

riverside Homosapien is a tune!

One of the things that Phoenix might be misunderstanding is they may think that the fact that one has to actually fill in a form will mean it will only be honest transgender persons who will go through this, BUT what Phoenix and others are missing is that because of self-id the local pervert does not even need to fill in said form. The reason is...

Women are not allowed to complain if there is a penis in a woman's space or they are labelled a bigot or transphobic (and sometimes banned themselves). Whoever is running said woman's space is also not allowed to challenge the male in female space as they will be labelled a bigot or transphobic (or have their business targeted and ruined). That means BECAUSE NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO EVEN ASK/CHALLENGE/ETC ...

ANYONE CAN ACCESS THESE SPACES AND DOES NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING (no dress, lippy, heels, or filled in form)!

The man standing naked next to your 5yo daughter in the change room waving his willy around and watching her get dressed in the old days would have been charged and taken out. Now he has every right to be there and no one has any right to challenge him. Please wake up and realize the worried people can see how this policy will be (and is being) abused by the wrong sort of people. This frustration and fear has nothing to do with real trans people and everything to do with those creeps who will abuse the fact that everyone is bowing to the regulations surrounding self-id.