My elderly parents peak transed today

[MyBeloved]

I was having a lively debate with my parents (both in their 80s and incredibly with it and intelligent) and the subject of womens only safe spaces came up. I decided to tell them about the proposed issues involving TIMs.

And they peak transed.

So begins the spread of this information among their friends, and the ripples will spread.

Sorry OP, feeling a bit frustrated here, apologies for the yelling on your thread. We are hell and gone down the rabbit hole in my neck of the woods

Well done on peaking your parents! I was just peaked recently, and have in turn peaked mine too. Hadn't heard a thing about this till joining MN, what a shock. Much thanks to you all!

Kittens, self defeating absolutely.

I felt awkward posting that because I'm aware that there's the beleif that they can be our allies. That there's some common goal and that they're sort of like us. But they're not. And we continue to support them and sympathise with them while they keep their heads down and we get trampled on.

We actually thank them when they come here to tell us how hard they've had it. We tell them that oh no, we don't mean you! I don't mind you being in my bathroom. And we bloody gush and listen to their unoriginal story about how they are gay or asexual or whatever. And they pretend to sympathise with our distress and rape stories and what do they then do?

They continue to use our spaces. They continue to insist we indulge them in their delusion and call them women. They are happy to keep telling the lie and having us feel sorry for them..They are not interested in supporting us, they are too invested in keeping their original set up.

I can't even fucking read anything by miranda Yardley and don't understand the fawning.

If a transvestite wants to take their fetish to work they call themselves gender fluid. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/fluid-gender-policeman/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

Basically it is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Women wouldn't be bothered about trans people and would probably be their biggest supporters if they didn't feel like they were being flung under a bus to give them what they want.

The only hate I see is against naturally born women. We are just sticking up for ourselves.

My husband is a lovely bloke who wouldn't hurt a fly. But a stranger doesn't know this. He's a man. He is not welcome in a woman's public toilet or changing room for the simple reason that his presence could and probably would scare women. They don't know he's nice. My husband is not unique. Most men will not harm a woman but since sadly a lot of men do they as a collective group are not allowed in women's spaces. And nice blokes understand this and are not offended by it. If you have a penis you are male and are therefore not allowed in a women's space. No-one is saying you personally are a danger. The changes to GRA will cancel this whole system out and make it utterly meaningless. You will have no way of being in a female only space ever again. It's that simple.

Ffs @ that policemen. How many women are going to feel comfortable discussing details of certain crimes with "Abi"? i just wouldnt want to deal with him.

Women wouldn't be bothered about trans people and would probably be their biggest supporters if they didn't feel like they were being flung under a bus to give them what they want

Do you really beleive that women would have done that Banyan? No offence but I can think of many more worthy causes, the 2 women a week killed by their partners in the uk, for example. I think the idea of women cheerleading men they don't know while they dressed up as women was only ever a fantasy on their part.

This support, or lack of it, is regular used as a stick to beat us with. We are meant to be nurturing and supportive, to everybody whether they deserve it or not. They expected our support and they are angry they're not getting it. When did we last see men campaigning for anything or support women in theirs?

And they pretend to sympathise with our distress and rape stories

Actually, I don't think that many of the old-skool transexuals who blow in here from time to time manage to do that.

OST: I have suffered! My life has been hell because of this!
Women of MN: That's terrible. We're sorry that happened to you.
OST: So we're the same, aren't we? Pity me!
WOMN: Well, no. Here's a story of some terrible thing that has happened to me because of being a woman.

OST: but I have SUFFERED! Didn't you hear that bit? And how it makes us the same? If we're not the same then my suffering gets WORSE
WOMN: yes, we see how that happens. It's rotten isn't it? Now, about this biology thing...
OST: And this is ANOTHER thing that has caused me suffering! Don't you think I would have loved that biology?!
WOMN: either engage, and cosset as required, or disengage and leave entirely.

That's been my experience. I do like Miranda's work, though. I think that they have really thought things through, and seem genuinely very empathetic.

I hadn't read the post on the "peak trans" thread when I posted that.

Still holds good.

The claire one?

WOMN: either engage, and cosset as required, or disengage and leave entirely.

I'm not inclined by personality or politics to do any cossetting. Interesting to note that in the short time I've been here I've seen a. several supposed OSTs turn up and play out the pattern Sophocles describes, and b. more than one person shift from "oh how can you refuse to cosset this poor helpless poppet you big meanie? cosset harder like a proper woman should!" to "actually maybe you have a point about the not cosseting thing". And I don't think that change is the result of anything I've said or done, it's just that when TRAs say "listen to trans people"? Um, maybe not the best suggestion, that, because most people find being milked for narcissistic supply a bit offputting once it's happened often enough for them to notice the pattern. Related to that...

Women wouldn't be bothered about trans people and would probably be their biggest supporters if they didn't feel like they were being flung under a bus to give them what they want.

Not bothered? If someone isn't bothering me, sure. But being the biggest supporter? Why should I do that? And we're back to that unreasonable expectations placed on women thing again.

If transwomen directed their anger at the men who commit crimes against women, and at whatever it is about society and culture that drives them to do so, rather than at women, that would be a start.

Decent people with penises, like Ohyes's husband, get why women need spaces for just them. The people with penises demanding access to women's spaces somehow don't. For some I imagine it's because they've not thought it through, in which case their anger is misdirected. Others have sinister motives. Both sets are wrong.

Regarding the trans women aren't safe with men in toilets /changing rooms thing - aside from the obvious that any men will be able to use any female space they fancy by signing a form so the perceived risks merely move location - have you seen @hopepinkboots on twitter? They call themselves an old school 'tranny', use the men's toilets then post pictures of themselves outside not being attacked...

Isn't pinkboots also pretty tiny for a bloke? And hard to miss, honestly, doesn't exactly blend into the scenery. Seems to be managing fine in men's spaces, though.

Anyone I've explained the Gra to has been horrified. I've been introducing it into conversation with what I'd describe as socially powerful women when possible, the ones who are in committes and groups of other women and will spread the word.

Yy to the objections to cosseting. I'm tired of every "real" transexual man who comes in here - a female space - being given flowers and sympathetic head pat's etc etc. It's fine to listen to their story, but they are not our allies. They are keeping their heads low while women get the full brunt of the TRA attacks. I'm sick of it. If transexual men want the support of women, they need to start speaking out and standing up for women. No more hiding. Because we can't.

Sorry, cross post AngryAttackKittens, yes, they are.

AAK, Terfinater, Sophocles

I'm not the cosseting type either. And I do think we're doing the right thing by pointing out narcissism and narcissistic injury in some of the people who come here and bemoan their fate for one thread because their thinking is so disordered that they genuinely cannot conceive that we are full human beings who can have our own priorities that don't include or consider them.

That said, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that post-SRS transsexuals using women's toilets are an entirely different proposition to what is being forced upon us now.

Different, yes, and priority one is stopping self-ID, but I think long term it's also important to make the point that no male has a right to be in women's spaces if the women in those spaces don't want them there.

I explained the implications of self-ID for women and girls at the weekend to my in laws, who were horrified and asked why no one is talking about this. They felt there needed to be a lot more debate as they could immediately see the risks for women and vulnerable adults/children. My FIL immediately decried TIMs in sport as “cheating”.

We need to push for loud, informed public debate on this issue. Once it is out there, the politicians will have to account to the wider public for their policies on this.

Different, yes, and priority one is stopping self-ID, but I think long term it's also important to make the point that no male has a right to be in women's spaces if the women in those spaces don't want them there.

Absolutely, yes.

We need to push for loud, informed public debate on this issue. Once it is out there, the politicians will have to account to the wider public for their policies on this.

I would draw a clear distinction between trans identified males who are clear that they are widening the bandwidth of maleness and those that insist we pretend we think they're women.

Some TIMs clearly think of themselves as failed men and are trying to cope with this by colonising womanhood. But there are others who feel failed by masculinity (as it's currently practiced) and are dissociating themselves from it whilst continuing to acknowledge their maleness. This seems perfectly reasonable to me, particularly as I've yet to hear a TIM in this category argue the case for invading women's spaces.

Carving out a space for men who reject masculinity is a great idea, it just can't be women's space.

I've seen quite a few transsexuals come and go on here over the last couple of years.

And there is a definite pattern.

A bit of soft soaping first to prepare their audience. Then generally a fairly detailed account of their lifelong victimhood.

When it first started to happen posters would often start in with the fawning. Guilt, socialisation - it all played its part.

But the thing that I noticed is that the mask slips very quickly.

If they don't get 100% support agreement, the negative reactions start to pile up. Male privilege seeps out and the sense of entitlement becomes obvious.

It's very revealing and, a quite useful exercise in why to exclude men in the first place.

However. Lately we have had a few transwomen who, quite genuinely, see the problem. There may be some vested interest, because they realise it's giving them a bad name.

But nonetheless, they tend to agree very much with what women are saying.

I totally understand women's reluctance to give any quarter. Not just because of the way they feel, but because a hard and fast stance has the effect of shifting the Overton Window and feels more honest, both ideal ideologically and practically.

However, it seems undeniable, to me, that having transwomen on board with women's concerns, is quite powerful.

Both in terms of the concept - how can a law designed for transwomen actually be pissing them off? And in adding weight to women's concerns.

We may not be natural allies, because transgenderism is based on sexism in upholding gender.

But in terms of the actual argument against both self ID and the danger of transactivism, I personally believe that being united with transwomen like Miranda Yardley, and some others on here, strengthens and augments women's position. I don't see how it can't.

For what it's worth, I've met Miranda, and he (he doesn't care about pronouns), as much as he possibly can be, given he isn't an actual woman, is ferocious in his defence of women.

He doesn't miss a trick to furiously oppose and take on transactivists. And unlike some others, he doesn't expect thanks. He genuinely is on a mission.

Him supporting women, whilst at exactly the same time representing transwomen, has given many people, politicians, etc, pause.

no, I do understand that you can just say you're a woman, and we have to accept it and no, I don't agree with that.

It's obviously being done for dubious purposes, and you're all absolutely right in saying that it should not be allowed and these people should not be allowed in places where women are vulnerable eg changing rooms.

HOWEVER, by "banning" trans women from using the changing room for example of their new gender, you're discriminating against them. Its not fait to put them at risk either is it?

I'm not saying that I have some kind of system to rule out the ones doing it for innaproproate reasons, I don't but if this was possible then it should be implemented.

womens rights should not be affected, no. But I am uncomfortable with the fact that trans women have no rights either.

and I don't like people saying "trans women don't exist they are men" - well they're not are they. Theres some who yes quite clearly are men, and will remain so and are saying they're women to get access to safe spaces and what not, but I honestly do believe that mentally some of these "men" are women and should be treated as such.

I don't personally know any trans women so I can't comment, but the ones in the public eye such as Stephanie hirst, I honestly do believe that she for all intents and purposes is a women. She gave up her brilliant career to make that move. She lost a lot of dear friends etc. Would you do that just so you could perv in the changing rooms? Nah.