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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jeremy Corbyn has a new enemy - Mumsnet

280 replies

busyboysmum · 12/02/2018 11:40

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/jeremy-corbyn-has-a-new-enemy-mumsnet/

I’ve learned that there are some brilliant, learned and compassionate people out there, who come at this from all angles. One (purely anecdotal) observation is that the diversity of opinions within the trans-gender population is not remotely reflected in the bit of this conversation most visible at Westminster. The trans community’s opinions are not as homogenous as some reporting and discussion suggest. So here’s a tip for hacks covering this: don’t just book Paris Lees or talk about Lilly Madigan. Ask Kristina Harrison what she thinks. Or Tara Hewitt. Or lots of other people. The same goes for the ‘radical’ feminist side of this: there’s more to it than Germaine Greer. (Though for some media outlets that really should know better, having any voice from that side of the conversation at all would be an improvement.)

OP posts:
Valentinesfart · 12/02/2018 17:52

Fwiw, I think self id is a big problem but so is growing child poverty, lack of social housing, growing homelessness etc. There are a lot of women who are already being disadvantaged and thrown under the bus by constant cuts. I think it is important to consider that when thinking about who to vote for in the next election.

yes, but if you have children you have to weigh that against them being taught they might be the wrong gender in schools. I don't want my children on hormones. But we're all pretty fucking poor right now too. I'd like a nice option between poverty and someone making my daughter share a shower with a boy lesbian.

Horridemma · 12/02/2018 17:52

Yes you are right about those issues. Child poverty is terrible but clearly not as high up or as trendy as self Id for some politicians.

How is the gradual erosion of female rights helping? Two wrongs don't make a right.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 12/02/2018 17:56

Jeremy throughout his career as a backbencher who achieved fuck all and was nothing more than a thorn in the side of those who actually did achieve something when Labour was in power

He has always had his projects and refuses to look at the bigger picture only wants to hear one side and dismisses the other

I’m glad people are starting to see through him he is nothing than an agitator he just happens to come across as more likeable than Ken Livingstone or John McDonnell he is the same

Let’s not forget who his guests were in the HOP a few weeks after the Brighton IRA bomb or how he ignored one of his own MP’s who was visibly upset being aggressively heckled by one of his supporters at the laughable report into anti semitism

I’m certainly not surprised what about his stance and don’t think he is really interested in what women who don’t happen to agree with him have to say

Everyonematters · 12/02/2018 18:04

Fwiw, I think self id is a big problem but so is growing child poverty, lack of social housing, growing homelessness etc. There are a lot of women who are already being disadvantaged and thrown under the bus by constant cuts. I think it is important to consider that when thinking about who to vote for in the next election.

Erosion/erasure of women and children's rights cuts across every issue. You need to be able to see sex based discrimination and disadvantage to help put in place measures to prevent it.

KatVonSweet · 12/02/2018 18:08

Thanks mumsnet for being a beacon against this insanity

Botanistinhiding · 12/02/2018 18:17

So lilymadigan is a woman’s officer for the Labour Party, and her tweet just dismissed us and loose women as transphobic?

Isn’t that astonishing - a real sign of how far the party have plummeted.

Presumably she could have come out and made many reassurances around nuances of this policy instead of sneering.

loudmouthwoman · 12/02/2018 18:18

This article is what made me join Mumsnet today. I had a conversation with a male friend recently - sparked by discussion of trans issues on CBB - as I also feel that while trans women have every right to be recognised as a type of woman, and have rights protected etc, you simply cannot know what it feels like to have been treated as a woman by society since age dot, and how that impacts on the way you interact with the world - essentially you just don't know how much you don't know. In the same way that I can't understand the experience of someone who has always felt they were born in the wrong body.

My male friend could absolutely not understand why I even cared about this (in the same way he cannot understand at all why there are certain places I would not go on my own as a woman because of male harassment), and yes, even suggested (only half jokingly) that I was transphobic. Reading this article - and then comments here - I now understand the way I feel about this. Because we are a group that still has to fight against disadvantages - disadvantages that neither men nor trans women (particularly recently transitioned) can understand or see. I see parallels in the case of Rachel Dolezal claiming to identify as black tbh. Does this make me transphobic, or some type of female essentialist? Interested to know others' viewpoints, including what trans women think of a pov such as my own. And to make clear, I'm not saying a trans woman's experiences are any less valid, or that anyone has it harder than anyone else, just that our experiences are different.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 12/02/2018 18:22

If you don’t accept Lily is a woman then you are transphobic

So there you go I am transphobic as Lily is obviously superior to myself to know what being a woman is really about though I was the one born with a vagina

Datun · 12/02/2018 18:23

loudmouthwoman

Welcome!

Your views are very reflective of the views on here.

There are numerous threads about this at the moment on here. Do have a read, it might calm your psyche.

Or it might send your blood pressure soaring!

And yes, it's no different to Rachel Dolezal identifying as black.

But that's different, apparently. Because reasons.

Datun · 12/02/2018 18:25

Lily is pretty silly to have a go at Loose Women and their viewers.

My bet is that tweet will get deleted when someone tells them.

athingthateveryoneneeds · 12/02/2018 18:26

Welcome, loudmouthwoman. Settle in and have a read of the many threads that are currently circulating the board, but especially in this section.

Oh, and you're a TERF. (solidarity, sister)

DodoPatrol · 12/02/2018 18:32

Welcome. Loudmouth.

The men who Don't Get It are pretty annoying, aren't they? Initial conversations all seem to go 'You're just being paranoid/most men are nice/some women like being complimented/how are poor men ever supposed to know how to approach a woman/stop tarring us all with the same brush/what about the men who are attacked too?' while simultaneously fully accepting that the poor transwomen are at serious risk because men really would attack them and that's somehow worse.

ContemporaryPankhurst · 12/02/2018 18:36

Hi loudmouthwoman. Welcome! The threads are brilliant on here grab a drink and prepare for some build up of anger/frustration/ wtf-ery.

Also these articles/essays are good if you have not seen them:
Sister Outrider, 'Womanhood':
sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/02/09/womanhood/

Critical Sisters, 'Open Letter - Stella Creasy'
www.criticalsisters.co.uk/blog/open-letter-stella-creasy/

Elizabeth Hungerford, 'A Feminist Critique of Cisgender'
liberationcollective.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/a-feminist-critique-of-cisgender/

In sisterhood xx

Ostrichnomore · 12/02/2018 18:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Winefred · 12/02/2018 18:39

Hello loudmouthwoman

I'm a recent convert and recent Mums-netter too. And a Lefty - which you might not be (since you were already reading the Spectator) - this is a pan-political movement.

I've learned a new word- #transpeak - which is the moment of enlightenment. A few days ago I 'peaked' when I saw a man in a dress featured as an achievement for 100 years of womens votes.

UnderTheDesk · 12/02/2018 18:42

Yeah, jenniferjames response to the article is weird and disappointing.

Bloomed · 12/02/2018 18:42

Did anyone manage to get a copy of the article before the site went down?

loudmouthwoman · 12/02/2018 18:45

from anothercassandra - "the pressure on gender-non-conforming children to transition
Currently, thousands of children who transition to the opposite sex are being sterilised - preventing them going through puberty and leaving them to a lifetime of surgery, medication and sexual dysfunction - in the name of progression, despite the evidence saying many of these kids would grow up into healthy gay adults, left to their own devices. This doesn't seem progressive to me, it's more like gay eugenics. I fear for my children having to navigate this. "

I am also concerned about this. I have a young female cousin (approaching puberty) who is looking at transitioning to male and I fear desperately that they are a)too young to make this decision and b) that they don't conform to female gender stereotypes therefore they feel must be in the wrong gender - when actually they might just be a different type of woman.

Don't we all feel like we are in the wrong body when we approach/go through puberty? I distinctly remember hating my changing body and being convinced that I should have been born a boy. Of course, that passed, and I am now extremely glad I am a woman, even if not of a type that pleases everyone. But if someone had said to me at the time, well hey, maybe you haven't been born in the right body, and this is an option, I could have gone down that route with very disastrous consequences.

This is not to say that I don't think there are people whose transition is absolutely necessary and even life saving for them. I am just concerned that this is becoming a panacea for non-conforming children and even somehow ends up further restricting the idea of what a "woman should be".

LangCleg · 12/02/2018 18:45

even suggested (only half jokingly) that I was transphobic

Welcome from me too, Loudmouth. I love your user name!

Every time someone accuses you of being a transphobe, just tell them, "Er, no. You're a misogynist. Transphobe means women have to make way for men. Same old same old. We call it misogyny."

HairyBallTheorem · 12/02/2018 18:45

Loudmouth in answer to your "does this make me essentialist?" question, that's a counter-accusation trans-rights activists quite often throw back at women who say "look, biology is what makes me a woman." The answer, from my point of view, is this. Most of the discrimination I suffer - lower pay, certain aspects of the health system, street harassment, threat of sexual violence - are down to my biology. My biology doesn't make it inevitable that I suffer these things (and if society were civilised they would not happen), but it does explain how I am identified by the people doing these things to me as a member of the class they (not I) deem less worth - less worth of equal pay, less worthy of respect, less worthy of safe spaces to go about my life. That is their problem, not an essential part of my biology, but it is how they make the distinction between women (the group of people they think it's okay to harass, molest and pay less) and men (the group of people they see as properly people).

Essentialism would be deciding your biology determines your personality. (Weirdly in this sense, genderism is a form of essentialism - some sort of nebulous inner "lady soul" is taken to determine your personality - pink and fluffy and submissive). What I and most of the women here is that biology explains how it is that one group of people can pick out and identify another group of people and treat them as lesser. (It also, historically, explains the means by which they were able to do so; women are - pesky biology again - are physically less strong and uniquely vulnerable when pregnant and caring for small infants, and uniquely vulnerable to being made pregnant by force i.e. rape).

So biology is the "means, motive and opportunity", to borrow a phrase from police procedurals, for most of the crimes committed against us. It doesn't make those crimes "right" or "natural" (which is what essentialism would commit you to).

Ostrichnomore · 12/02/2018 18:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Agerbilatemycardigan · 12/02/2018 18:50

Tweet from James Kirkup

Some people have said nice things about some stuff I wrote about gender. Don’t want to sound ungrateful but it’s underserved: @VictoriaPeckham & @helenlewis & other women said it all first. But I get praise and they got abuse. Draw your own conclusions

daysofpearlyspencer · 12/02/2018 18:50

I have just attended my first WI meeting, I will not be returning or joining

Datun · 12/02/2018 18:52

Oh no. Was at the jam or the Jerusalem?

Please don't tell me it was the men.

TheXXFactor · 12/02/2018 18:53

Welcome to the resistance loudmouthwoman Smile

I have huge admiration forJennifer James' courage in fronting the Go Fund Me campaign, but she comes across as quite mad when it comes to JC. Apparently any journalist who reports what Corbyn said about self-ID is a capitalist lackey, paid to undermine him Hmm She is slagging off all the gender critical journalists because they can't see the inner Jeremy, who is such a supporter of women even though he surrounds himself with misogynist bullies and says that men can self-ID.

I'm not going to donate to her again - I don't trust anyone with such a cult-like belief in any politician. I'll be supporting WPUK financially instead.